Feeling Stuck: Part 11 (FULL. PLEASE POST IN PART 12.)

205 comments:

  1. I seem to be having a really hard time being kind and gentle with myself. I have been telling myself some pretty mean shame narratives lately. I think I do this - criticize myself- more than I realize. Also , I feel like my H has been kinda hard on me lately too. Frustrated that we or I have been a bit stuck, feeling like he is doing so much and it just doesn't matter to me... Which of course it does but I'm stuck. Stuck between my own brain saying " you have no control just relax and be brave" and the opposit " I must have control!!!! I need control!!! I can't be brave when I feel this scared!!!" Control control control.

    I might lose my mind it I don't learn to lose control.

    Becky

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    1. We are terrified of being betrayed again. How do we overcome that? I am struggling with it too, Becky. (((Hugs)))

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    2. Becky,
      Losing control feels terrifying. That's a given. But if you stay with the fear and just feel it -- the rapid breathing, the knot in your gut, the tingling of your hands, your mind racing -- and just keep telling yourself "I'm okay right this moment. I'm okay right this moment", you'll find that you can survive this. And once you've survived it, you'll KNOW you can survive it again...and again. It will get easier because you'll identify it as "fear" as in "here comes fear again. but I can handle this". It takes practice and you might want to work through it with a therapist, especially if you're experiencing PTSD. But that fact that you're even noticing the shame narrative you're playing in your head is a really good sign. I bet you never used to notice...it was just the constant script. Next step is to talk back. "It's not true." "I'm a good person." Or whatever works for you. You'll get there, Becky. I think you're doing better than you're giving yourself credit for.
      And once you have a better handle on that, you'll be able to detach more from your husband's actions and no longer feel as though his choices are life and death for you.

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    3. Phoenix,
      It really helped me to recognize that I was experiencing PTSD symptoms. Once I could see that my brain was responding to trauma as if it was still happening, I could begin to work through that. It starts with realizing that, no matter what sort of panic my brain goes into, the truth is that I have the control I need. If you're really struggling with this, find a counsellor who acknowledges PTSD from betrayal and work with him/her. It mightn't take more than a few sessions. I did EMDR work for a few times and it goes a LONG way toward eliminating symptoms.

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    4. I highly recommend Pete Walker's book about Complex-PTSD. It was something I'd read a couple of years before D-day to help me deal with PTSD from an abusive childhood. It has also helped me get through the trauma of my husband's betrayal.

      Whenever you hear that negative voice in your head, it can be really useful to actually say "No!" to it, out loud if possible. (My personal favorite was, "Shut up, mom!" because I knew she was the one who had put that voice in my head. Felt great for thought-stopping, and felt great because I couldn't say that to her for real!) See your inner critic as your enemy. It may speak, but you do not have to listen to it. The more you practice stopping that voice, the easier it gets. I won't claim it doesn't get to me sometimes, but not anywhere to the degree it used to.

      Also, I've said it before, but have you tried journaling? I would write angry letters to my husband in my journal where I could call him all the horrible names I didn't want to say to his face, the things that would be very hard to try and take back later. It also helps to be able to look back at my journal and realize that the pain and anger isn't as strong as it used to be. Sometimes it fades so gradually you don't even realize it. I'll look back at old journal entries where I wrote so hard I tore through the paper and think, "Wow, that was me?" It makes me realize that I am not as stuck as I might think I am.

      I hope that helps!

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    5. Hello, Becky. I know this sounds like a platitude, but it is true. You DO have control of what YOU decide to do. You can never control another person's behavior, but you definitely have the power to make your own choices about that behavior. It may help you to formulate a viable Exit plan, just in case; you will know you have some control over your future if you decide to leave. See an attorney to get the financial facts -- you may be surprised that you can manage without his income. You don't ever have use the plan, if you decide to stay in the marriage, but just having it in place may make you feel empowered.
      I hope this helps. I guess we've all been there with you -- I know how hard it is.
      Ethel

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    6. I feel the same way as Becky and Phoenix. My counselor and I have been working through the PTSD. The worst thing is I am so scared because I KNOW I have no control. None. But I suppose I never had the control I thought I had.

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  2. Its been 2 years since the affair finally ended. My H and I had lots of positive steps but things haven't gotten much better over all. We are actually back to the struggles which we were having before the affair. He keeps pointing to this and hinting that it is what drove him to cheat. But this time, I have an answer to why we have struggled for so long, why he hasn't been able to follow through with his promises of working throught the healing, why he can't show up consistently despite saying all the right things for awhile. Our marraige fit the textbook narrative of one affected by ADHD. His affair is definitely related to the ADHD and his addictive, thrill seeking ways. He can barely admit the ADHD but I am convinced that this is the big factor in his affair and our marital struggles. Atleast I have an answer and I no longer take the blame for his behavior. But I don't have a partner who is capable enough of working on our relationship. I am so close to calling it quits.

    -MBS

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    1. MBS,
      One of the big things I think so many of us learn through this is what we can control vs. what we cannot. Unless he's willing to seek help for his ADHD (and I hear you...my husband refuses to get diagnosed though our couples counsellor simply speaks to him as if it's a given. She refers to "your ADHD..."), then his behaviour will continue to negatively impact your marriage. And, of course, you get to decide where you draw the line. You can't rebuild a marriage alone.
      Whatever you decide, MBS, we're right there with you.

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  3. I am dealing with similar issues. When we went out Saturday night, at one point he checked his phone under the table. At another point he went out to smoke, leaving his phone next to me, but then immediately turned around and came back to get it, with some feeble excuse about texting our daughter - which he then did not do. Then he didn't want to go to his favorite bar, the one he ALWAYS wants to go to. And I'm thinking: is there someone there you don't want me to talk to?i don't usually want to stay out this late. Were you planning on meeting someone later because you expected me to go home and go to sleep?
    Unlike Ashes, I did not bring any of this up. He had an overwhelming work week last week, and it was our first chance to spend any time together all week. I couldn't decide if I was being paranoid, and I didn't want to spoil the evening.
    He has had a bad habit in the past of staying out too late, and then falling asleep in his car and not making it home until morning. It's a true story; I've actually found him asleep in his car. It's selfish, irresponsible, and dangerous. He made me a promise that he wouldn't let it happen again, and that he would always text me and let me know where he was. And sometimes he's been good about it. But he broke his promise on Saturday theSaturday the 28th, and again last night. It seems to me that this is dysfunctional behavior. And even though I know he can fall asleep, I'd be an idiot not to suspect, under the circumstances, that he is with somebody.
    He has been doing some good thoughtful things, calling to talk, checking in, trying to come home earlier and spend more time with the family - but staying out all night feels like a deal breaker, and I don't know what to do. I fear his "changes" are temporary. I need to confront him, but this is Crazy Week, with band concerts and cantata rehearsals every single night.
    I can't trust this man. I am trying to love him, but it is very hard. I am increasingly numb and uncaring.

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    1. Phoenix,
      You're not being the least bit unreasonable. He needs to show respect for you and your marriage by being true to his word. If he can't trust himself to not fall asleep, then he needs to come home before he's that tired. "Sometimes" being good at texting and letting your know isn't good enough. He's either in this thing with both feet and both hands, or he's not.
      You can't trust him because he's not showing you that he's trustworthy. He's breaking his promises to you on top of having already broken his vows. HE had an overwhelming week?? Well...perhaps he should try having the type of week where he discovers his partner has been cheating on him.
      Sorry but I have little patience for guys who want a second chance and then don't do EVERYTHING in their power to deserve it.

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    2. Phoenix, I'm so sorry. The fear/paranoia sucks. I think staying out all night would be a deal breaker for me, in all honesty, I just don't think it's something married men need to be doing and I agree with Elle, if he's that tired, then he needs to just come home. How does he react when you usually bring things up? In all honesty, I was floored by my h's reaction because it was so out of character for him since full disclosure, so I didn't think twice about saying anything (and I would have said something anyway, holding it in just makes me suffer more). Could you schedule some talking time in this week?

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    3. Phoenix,
      I agree with Elle and I know I'm blunt at times. I have been following your post and story for awhile. You are so beautiful in your thought, actions and dedication to your marriage. Can't he see you? It is almost like your still chasing him around to get him reined in. You shouldn't have to do this. I don't know how old you are but he sounds almost teenager like and immature about your marriage. It is borderline emotional abuse to me when he pulls shit like that and already knows you will be upset. How much shit are you willing to put with? He is still throwing you curve balls. So it is crazy week for him or you or you both? I'm maybe totally off but he takes advantage of you, makes behavior excuses and disregards your fears/feelings. What is important for him? I don't know anything about music type life but I do know, he should still not be doing anything that he knows upsets you. Think have you set any rules he HAS followed? Is him doing those little "thoughtful things" enough to heal your broken heart? It is sad to see each post how hard you are trying. Is there drugs involved that would play a role and would impair his judgement? That phone is a red flag. Ask him to allow you to carry it around for a day and then ask him to hand it to you right then if he has nothing to fear then he will. Give him your phone so he still can make calls. Ease your mind it needs it

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    4. I talked to him about it last night. He didn't try to defend himself. I told him "I'm sorry" didn't mean much to me at this point, and he said he was sorry anyway. He didn't make me any more promises. I don't want them. I just want to see what he does.

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    5. Phoenix, you are not being at all unreasonable! What he is doing is unacceptable. My husband calls me if he's going to be even 5 minutes late. If I ask who he's texting, he shows me his phone right away. If he's on his laptop, the screen is angled so that I can see it at anytime. I have all his passwords. It's been almost 18 months for us, not once have I got a, "You should trust me by now," speech. He has told me that even if he has to do this for the next 50 years in order to prove himself, he will never complain. That's the price he has to pay for betraying me.

      My husband used to stay awake downstairs while I went upstairs to bed. Unbeknownst to me at the time, that was when he would go online to binge on porn and talk to other women. That's no longer happening, he comes to bed when I do. Even if he doesn't go to sleep when I do, he stays in our room. If he wants to do stuff online, he uses his phone or laptop so that I could see what he's up to at any point. If he insisted he be allowed to stay downstairs without me that would be a problem. Even though sometimes before D-day, he really was just watching TV or surfing innocently online, that privilege is gone now. He forfeited it by living a double life. I would think it should be obvious that the same thing would apply with your husband and sleeping away from home, even if it's innocent.

      Whatever you decide, we are here for you. Just know that you deserve more respect that you are getting right now. Lots of hugs.

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  4. Thank you all for your support. I've always had things under control, been on the ball, a go to girl, and now ...... Things fell apart while I was thinking it's all so organized. The really hard thing now is realizing I don't have control and if he wants to betray me again he will. Do I have the courage to love and be loved again? Now that I know the pain of this heartbreak. The truth is I know that I am holding back shutting down parts of my heart. I don't love him the same as before and I don't receive his love the same either. This kills me. And is so very strange, I was blessed to grow up in a pretty healthy family and the feeling that I am struggling to love and be loved is really really foreign to me. Keeping my heart open seems hard.

    Love and support to all those here.
    Becky

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    1. Yes, this is so terribly sad. Like it will never be a complete love. I play with the idea of a balancing act, love, but not too much. Can I do this? Like you say, shutting down parts of your heart, very well said. I was the same with a pretty healthy family. A family I now have to keep this disgusting secret from as well. This was not supposed to be this way.

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    2. Becky and Anna, that's my mantra some days, this was not supposed to be this way. It sucks. It's so very hard to not shut down parts of your heart and hold back, as soon as I feel like I'm opening up completely, I go crazy with fear/paranoia. I will say, and I hope you get there too, that I've decided not matter how scary, I'm going to fight to keep my heart open. Not for him, but for me. I don't want this to define me and cause me to lose who I am underneath it all. Hugs to you both.

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    3. Becky, Anna, Ashes,
      We've all been there. It's agony to go through that "how did this become my life?" stage. But please know, it is a stage. Just keep walking through the pain, don't overthink stuff. Ask yourself, what's my next right step. That's all you need to know right now. The time will come to sort out what you ultimately want but it's not the time when you're mired in pain and riding a roller coaster of emotion.
      Next right step. That's all you need to know right now.

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  5. Phoenix

    I encourage you to stand up for your boundaries and yourself. Staying out all night certainly sounds like unacceptable behavior and would not help to build trust. I wish I had demanded respect for some important boundaries in early months. I think it would have helped me then and where we are now.

    You are not being unreasonable in anyway. Remember to trust your intuition, often we know more and have more courage than we think we do. This sounds like a stressful difficult week - you are not alone, we are all here for you. Also I know it is hard but be kind to yourself, you are worth it.

    Love and support
    Becky.

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  6. I remember the first time I posted here. The responses I got, the support and the understanding, brought tears to my eyes and eased something inside my soul. Thank you. I love y'all. I'd say: "you'll never know what this means to me.", But of course, you do.
    He is worthy of love. At his best, he is kind and tender hearted, protective and loving. I grew up with a loving dad, but he was overly critical and often emotionally unavailable. My husband accepted me just as I was; he was my cheerleader, he told me I was beautiful. When I had a lead role in a play, he bought tickets for every performance. We bought a new car for me, and he drove a 15 year old car with no AC. Like many of you, I can list lots of reasons why he is lovable.
    But he is emotionally. Messed. Up. He's depressed. He buries things deep inside. He has constant insomnia and stays awake for hours, then crashes hard. He drinks too much. And heaven help me, he lies as easily as he breathes. I hurt for him, and I resent him.
    You're right, I need to hold his feet to the fire. I need boundaries. I honestly don't know what our future will be. Becky, you summed up my feelings perfectly. I don't love him the same way. I keep part of my heart closed off.
    Elle, Ashes, Lynn, Anna, Becky, thank you. I read and reread your posts. Your words help me keep my sanity.
    Hugs to all of you! Here's to making it through another day in the New Normal!

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    1. Phoenix,
      My husband was messed up too...and I'd really had no idea. I was so accustomed to assuming the problem was ME (thank-you dysfunctional childhood!). So you're already way ahead of where I was because you can recognize that he's got issues.
      But when I discovered what my husband had been doing -- the lies, the deception, the risky behaviour -- I realized that my gut had been warning me all along. And I realized this was the time to insist he get help. That all I could expect was more of the same pain (not necessarily via cheating but simply because he didn't know how to have a healthy intimate relationship) if he didn't get to the root of his own problems.
      I would urge you to see this as an opportunity to insist he get help. Without it, little will change. Different circumstances, same pain. Your "new normal" doesn't have to be bad.

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  7. I had my d day three weeks ago. I have only been married nine months. My story is the same as everyone's...paying the phone bill...noticed some weird patterns... picked up the phone to check his messages and BOOM. We are in counseling but the real problem is he is still lying to me. I have proof and he his still denying it. The counselor is trying get him to be honest but I don't know if he can. We have no children and I am financially independent. I adore him and we have so much fun together but I am heartbroken and devastated. I am sick on my stomach and shaky and weak. I have lost ten pounds in the last two weeks. My husband says he will do anything to work this out but I honestly don't know how I will ever be able to trust him. I see a lot of people on here that say it takes time but is there any additional advice? If you know someone has lied to your face over and over how do you build trust? How can I start when I don't believe anything he says?

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    1. jray, have you confronted him with the proof that he is still lying? If he is still lying to you, of course you don't feel that you can trust him. I had a hard enough time trusting my husband even though he has been honest with me since he confessed (at least as far as I can tell). I trust, but verify. So far, every time what he has said has checked out with the evidence. That's the only way to rebuild trust. You can't rebuild trust with someone who isn't being honest with you. It's agonizingly hard enough to rebuild trust with someone who is committed to being honest.

      Like Anna said, I'm tempted to say that if this had happened to me this early in my marriage and I was financially independent, I'd dump him, but who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have. After all, I always said that cheating was a dealbreaker, yet here I am, hanging on 18 months since D-day.

      My advice is to figure out what your boundaries are. Have you read the previous post, "My heartbreak, my rules?" I found it extremely helpful. Lots of hugs. We're here for you no matter what you decide.

      http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2015/01/my-heartbreak-my-rules.html

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    2. jray,
      I'm with Gee. If he wants to rebuild a marriage with you, then he needs to be willing to do the heavy lifting. That means, total honesty, total transparency and total commitment to doing whatever it takes. It will be really tough. He will have to look at things about himself that will bring on shame and guilt, which are feelings most of run from. But the alternative is for you to walk away. Without anything keeping you there but your faith that he can be a better person, he'd be a fool to lose you.

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    3. Thank you everyone for the support and responses. we have been to counseling separately and together now. At our together session the counselor urged him to be completely honest with me about past indiscretions and to be open and honest going forward. The counselor also told me that I have to keep pushing him when I think he is not being honest. My husband says I need to stop digging and that anything I find is not going to make me happy. He told me point blank that he isn't going to admit to anything because it isn't going to make things better. So I found some text messages that to me clearly indicate he was somewhere he shouldn't be doing things he shouldn't be just a couple of days prior. I asked him to explain them and he made up a story that did not make sense. I let it go. We had a great night hanging out and connecting and talking. I told him I would not hold past things against him if he was honest with me. In my head I am thinking stuff before d day and two counseling sessions and countless talks and text messages promising things are going to be different and that he won't let me down again. So the text messages nag at me and I have nightmares and upset stomach all night. I tell him again that the messages and his story don't match. He denies it again. I push and he admits that he was lying to me. I freak out and he gets really angry and said I lied to him because I said I wouldn't get mad. I said I meant for past not that you are currently still lying to me! He said I just totally proved his point that admitting guilt just causes more problems. I tried to talk to him logically. Does he not see the problem here? He says he is not a habitual liar because he doent lie all the time. Just to get out of trouble. I really don't think I can do this. He is clearly very broken. He had a horrible childhood. He was abandoned with a man his mom knew when he was 13 and his dad remarried and didn't want him. The man that raised him was a crooked/criminal type who was often cold and never sportive or attentive. I don't want to be one more person that abandons him but I am not sure he is willing or capable of facing his issues and getting real help. I know the decision is mine but I have no idea if I can make it long enough to find out. I am so exhausted and depressed. Not suicide depressed just not able to feel joyful depressed. I want to stay in bed and sleep for a few days depressed and just gather my strength.

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    4. jray3715, you don't have to make a decision immediately. Stay in bed and rest and gather your strength. I barely got off of the couch/out of bed for about 2 weeks after DDay and then I still only did what I had to for a few more weeks. Elle always says to take the next right step, it sounds like your next right step is to take care of yourself.

      Please, please don't think you're abandoning him if you decide to leave. These are HIS choices that you are reacting to, not abandonment. He has to be open to understanding what led him to think its okay to lie and cheat. It would concern me in your shoes if he says he just lies to get out of trouble, I'm not sure that speaks to a man who has the capability right now of changing his behavior and doing whatever it takes to repair your marriage. We're here for you no matter what!

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    5. Thank you everyone! It feels so good to talk to people who get what I am going through. Finding out that he was still lying to me this weekend after we have been to counseling and talked several times and both the counselor and I have explained the importance of total honesty has finally pushed me too far. His behavior during the entire incident has made me relive every incident for the last two years since we met and I can see so clearly now how often he was lying to me and covering things up. What he was doing that he lied about doesn't even matter to me at this point. It is that he lied again. Something in me broke this weekend and I really don't think I am in love with him any longer. I don't see how I could ever trust him again. He is clearly going to continue doing whatever he wants and lying when caught. I am going to counseling once more before Christmas and he is too so I am going to see what comes of that and reevaluate after Christmas. I will see if I can find the next right step. Hugs to you all!

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    6. So today I went to put something in his car, which he NEVER locks, and it was locked. So I got the keys and went through it. I found a shot glass that we bought for his best man on our honeymoon, drug paraphernalia and condoms. He took the glass and told me he gave it to him a few months ago when he was going to spend the day with him. He has sworn to me that he has only had one relapse in eight years and we don't use condoms because I am on birth control. All of this could be from months ago and I am sure he will say he did go see Bill but forgot to take him the shot glass and that the pipe is old or someone else's and that someone gave him the condoms as a gag gift for our wedding or his birthday and they have been riding around in his trunk. As usual I will have no way to prove that it isn't the truth and now I am the bad guy because I won't quit digging and ruining our forward movement. I haven't said anything because I know exactly how it will end. I just don't know what to do. He may be telling me the truth today but I don't see how I will ever trust him again when it appears our entire life was a lie.

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    7. Anna, thank you! You take care too! I have read your posts and totally feel for you too. I have been thinking today about how I adore this man and love to spend time with him and I thought he was the one and when I am with him I can't turn off my feelings of love for him but at the back of my mind I am doubting every word he says. It is torture. I hope you find the next right step for you.

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    8. jray,
      As my recent post noted, letting people mistreat you is not love. You're abandoning yourself. You are not responsible for him. You have never been. He is an adult who is being given the choice of facing up to his behaviour or continuing to lie. He is choosing the latter. That is HIS choice. Your choice lies in how you respond to that knowledge.
      I think it's time for you to gather the strength to separate from him. Knowing the pain he's causing you, he continues to do it. Don't get into the circular arguments. He cheated on you. You gave him the chance to make amends, which included being honest with you. He chose to continue to lie. End of story. You are now respecting his right to make that choice and respecting yourself enough to walk away from someone who makes that choice.
      jray, I know this is hard. But it's not going to get any easier to stay with someone who isn't willing to help you create a healthy relationship. You can stay mired in dysfunction or you can choose better for yourself.
      And think of it this way: As long as you tolerate this behaviour, he will continue. You're not doing him any favours by not holding him accountable.

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  8. #1 Force some food down. I went through the weight loss thing as well and still loose my appetite every time I worry, like now as a matter of fact. (Out, night, meeting buddy, but is he really?) #2 Part of me wants to say if I were younger and/or freshly married I'd be out of there but that is only the part that doesn't know your individual situation or his sincerity. It's also related to the part of me that said "if my husband ever cheated on me it would be over.--" I'm sure some of the women with more experience will have some good advice for you. (I'm at 5 weeks) Take care of yourself while you work through this.

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  9. So here I am at five weeks. I go from 99% confidence that all will be well, to moments of doubt and anxiety when I don't know exactly where he is or what he is doing. He has tracking turned on on his phone but it isn't exact and sometimes stops working. When he's with me, I believe him 100%. Relief and feeling almost silly that I was worried. (I know it's not silly.) But then I realize in moments like now, that that is EXACTLY how he made me feel while it was happening. Safe and comfy when he was here, abandoned, when he was out. This sucks and I've got to figure out how to not feel like this but without destroying my heart or love for him if things really are on the mend.

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    1. Anna,
      At five weeks, I could barely function so you're actually doing pretty well.
      Of course, you're struggling with trust. He's given you every reason to NOT trust him.
      The only way out of this is through it. Which means, trust but verify. Check in with him when necessary. If tracking isn't working and you're feeling uncomfortable, call him. Get him to agree to always respond in some way to let you know. See if you two can figure out a way to help HIM show you that he's committed to honesty and transparency. See if you can work together as a team. It can go a long way toward strengthening your marriage in the long run when you view this as a chance to work together to mend.

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  10. My heart is hurting. Reconciliation is going well, outside of the issues last Friday night, and H has taken full responsibility for that and has made attempts to make amends, figure out what caused him to react that way and to adjust his behavior. Sometimes it seems the closer we get back to normal, the more it pains me because I remember how good it was before we lost ourselves and each other. I know its hurting him too, as he keeps making comments about the past and things we did, what I did for him, etc. I look back and can see the slippery slope we were on that primed him for an affair, which is by no means an excuse, but I can even see what/when he broke now that I look back, I just didn't realize it at the time. I don't take responsibility for the affair in any way, shape or form, but it makes me sad to have the hindsight. I made a joking comment about prepaying for therapy for my son at a family gathering the other day and H's mother told me that if her kids didn't need therapy, then I shouldn't worry about mine. If she only knew...

    My son, out of nowhere, has decided he wants a sister. Last Friday, he kept asking me if I could pray for him to have a sister. The OW is pregnant with a girl and I pray all day, every day (as does my H) that this child is not his. Monday, at bedtime, he said "Mommy, will you please ask God to bring me a sister?", so I did, while my heart broke. I'm grateful in a way, because this primes him to be able to accept this situation, but I want to be the one giving him a sister and the unfairness of it takes me under sometimes. This has torn my husband apart too, the reality of his actions on our son as well as me. Today, my son was asking the difference between brothers and sisters and cousins as we've been spending lots of time with his cousins (all of whom are multiple children, we are the only one of my husband's family to have an only child). I started to say that being brother and sister meant that you had the same parents, and I had to stop, because that explanation sucks in our case. I know, or hope, that I'll find the words to explain when the time comes, but for now, I side stepped and distracted him from the answer. I know there are no right answers or immediate fixes, I just wish it wasn't this way...

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    1. Ashes,
      My heart is hurting for you. You've got so much going on that I really admire the strength and integrity with which you're facing it all. And being such a loving mom too. Please please give yourself HUGE credit for all you're doing.
      Please try to adopt a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" philosophy. You're getting ahead of yourself. It's pretty normal for a kid to ask for a sibling. And it can feel painful to parents for all sorts of reasons, including because the parents simply don't want another child. Right now, his reality is that he's an only child. Maybe you can spend time talking about the pros/cons of being an only child. (I have three kids and every single one of them INSISTS they wish they were an only...). Try to practice being in THIS moment right now...and respond that way. You can suggest that who knows what life is going to bring your way (ain't THAT the truth). But, Ashes, you're amazing. And you'll get through this. It hurts like hell, I know. But you'll get through.

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    2. Phoenix, I'm aching for you! I'm so sorry you're going through this! The future looks scary when we're in this place, but please believe me, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you'll come out on the other side okay, better than okay, because you've rebuilt yourself and your life. (Ha, at least that's what I keep telling myself, I was divorced before but it was a young, military rushed marriage and more like an unraveling of roommates than untangling of lives that we face in this situation, but I do remember the fear of the future and the unknown). Have you heard of the legend of the Phoenix? I wasn't sure if your name referenced that or where you are from, but the legend says that each time the Phoenix burns to ashes, she returns stronger and more beautiful than before (and where I built my screen name from). I think of that often when I read your posts because everything you type speaks to your beautiful soul and strength in this terrible time.

      I may be cynical because of my situation, but is there a possibility OW's child could be your husband's? My husband would only admit to an emotional affair until the day I found out she was pregnant. Full and final disclosure came because everything was on the table and I was in communication with the OW. How likely is his explanation? Would he call your cousin's child his princess?

      Whatever you decide to do, know that we are here for you. I'll be praying for you.

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  11. Today I'm on a situation if I need to let go or stay on our marriage. We've been married for 15 years and Im 34 yrs old. We are both young when we got married the first time he cheated on me, I was only 23 yrs old at that time we are not living together coz he need to petitioned me as his wife from foreign country, given a chance I forgave him coz we are not together and he was young at that time.. But then after 10 years he did it again and this is really painful to me coz he's still denying it , I found all the evidence pictures & calls, by the way the OW is his ex-gf way back when they are on grade school - and she is married also with 1 child but they are separated (OW -Canada) - I don't know why I cant let him go , I invested too much time & effort to save our marriage & its almost a year now, he got his own apt last april at first I was with him but it was a chaos he always gone every month to go to Canada to be with her at that time and I got pregnant but in the midst of that he told me that my baby was a mistake - due to too much stress and anxiety I lost my baby- and he blame me for that coz my health is not healthy enough to carry my baby- And last August the OW visited US and I found it out and confronted both of them - and he told me that she's just only visiting her friends- for almost a month we don't have a communication- but my religious belief that I need to do whatever it takes to save our marriage .. since last Sept. we are living together again- but its a hell he don't want me to touch his things like computer,cellphone and mails - he did not say sorry to me at all and keep blaming me as if Im the one who cheated on him- everyday I felt miserable - I wanna get out but Im afraid also as well what will be my life? pls help **

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    1. Anon, a marriage takes two people. If he isn't committed to making it work, you cannot do that on your own. Take it from a woman who tried to make it work on her own for over a decade before D-day.

      Have you tried therapy? It sounds like you might be struggling with codependence. This is coming from a recovering codependent.

      You say you want to get out, but you're afraid of what your life will be like. That is completely normal and understandable. But I say, flip it around. If you stay, and he continues like this, what will your life be like years from now? Would you be happy to stay if he doesn't change? If he continues to hide things from you, continues to blame you, if he never apologizes? If you are miserable every day, do you want to continue in that? You deserve to be happy.

      I'm not religious. I don't know what your religious beliefs are, but I don't believe that any loving god would want you to stay and be treated with less than the love and respect that you deserve. And you do deserve it.

      Also, please do not blame yourself for the loss of the baby. These things happen, often without any good reason. Women have given birth to healthy children during times of war and famine, women who are struggling with addiction or cancer, any number of things. It is not your fault. I'm really sorry for the loss of your child. I've had three miscarriages, I know how painful it is.

      I hope some of what I said might be helpful to you. Lots of love and hugs.

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    2. No I did not yet try any therapy as of now,, the worst part also my friends and family are not talking to me coz i chose to be with my H. Everyday i keep asking myself why im on this situation , why me? He told me im a control freak , controlling he's life etc. There are days that Im ready to let go , we talked about the divorce he said that deep in his heart he doesnt want a divorce but he want me to change .. He want someone he will be proud of, but i told him are you proud that your OW , she is married where is the moral value? And he will really get mad ans frustrated about it coz hes stil denying her ,, ans they are planning to move in together in Canada.. And it really hurts me a lot thinking that he will be with her ;( but sometimes at the back of my minda whatever he did to me he will do it to her.. Maybe i just need a one more kick to get out of this abusive and all lies relationship..

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    3. Hold the phone: he wants YOU to change??? Whaaaat? No. Just no. You are not the one who did anything wrong, he is. He is blaming you, but this is on him, NOT you.

      From what I am reading, this is an abusive relationship. You deserve so much better than this. I know it might be hard to believe that right now, but you do. Elle has the infidelity counseling network linked in the right-hand side-bar. It's free, and they will help women whether they decide to stay or go.

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    4. Anonymous,
      I think you know exactly what you want...it's just hard to walk into the unknown. But, as Gee points out, you DO know what your life will be like if you stay with him. It will be continued abuse and lies and deception.
      You are braver than you know. You will discover that you can be frightened and walk away anyway, trusting that you can create a life for yourself that is free from his lack of respect and mistreatment.
      You don't need another kick. He's already given you more than enough reasons to walk out. Treat yourself with the respect that you deserve.

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  12. I had a meltdown this weekend. Spent a day frozen and a night half-hysterical. My posts were so confusing as I went back and forth, I deleted them. My H and I have spent the weekend recovering. Sleeping a lot. Snapping and apologizing. Stepping around land mines. Hugging. Neither of us wants to hurt the other, but we both feel lost and depressed. I'm giving this to God. Only He knows where this rocky, meandering detour is leading us. We've lost the map.
    Peace and comfort and hugs to all of you.

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    1. Oh I'm so sorry you are going through this. The adrenaline and bad sleep are so overwhelming just in themselves. It's so hard to be positive, heal, and move forward if our husbands are emotionally challenged. I feel for you. Take care.

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  13. Oh Phoenix - I have missed some of your posts. It seems that things have been extra hard lately. I am so sorry! This is so hard on regular days and often we wonder if we can actually survive the really difficult ones. I don't know what is going on, but at some of our lowest moments my H and I just said let's not do more damage to each other and our relationship. I think at times this kept us from completely going over the edge. Then we could recover a bit and try again.

    We are here for you and often when there is no other rest, resting in God is a good choice. My love and prayers.

    Becky.

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    1. Thank you, Becky! I think about you a lot.
      That's kind of where we ended up. We are both so messed up right now. We affirmed to each other that each one of us, in the long run, wants the other to heal and find happiness. And we left it at that.
      I was making progress until doubts crept in and set me back. He dealt with those doubts, and then we tried to get back on track again. Yesterday was a better day, and we had a great night last night with our kids.
      I hope things are going better for you this week. Hugs and good thoughts to you!!!

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    2. Phoenix,
      I suspect we've all been there. I know I have. The adrenaline, the rage, the despair...and then, the exhaustion.
      But there you are. Still committed to making this work. You'll get there.

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  14. Phoenix and Becky,
    Thinking of both of you. Seems it's been a rough couple of days for many of us. But here we all are, putting one foot in front of the other, slogging through it, venting here because we know the BWC "gets it". And the beauty of this club is that even in our own pain, we're here for one another.
    Hugs and prayers to you all.

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    1. Thanks Dandelion - yes it has been a difficult period. Thank God for the BWC, I have never had such a need for people to "get" what I feel. My H is remorseful and has apologized many times, but I know he simply doesn't feel the true heart break I feel - how could he? I am amazed at the strength women share here. And the safe place we provide to each other to share.

      Love and support to you and all the sisters here.

      Becky.

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    2. Thank you, Dandelion! You are so right. Having people who understand exactly what I am going through has been an important part of my healing. Thank God for Elle and for all of you! My H doesn't get that. I only wish he could find the same comfort; he has no one. Thank you, friends!

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    3. Thank you for the sentiments. Didn't quite 'get' the 'getting it' part completely but now I do. I had hoped my H would 'get' it but no, that will not be happening in this life time.

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    4. I often quote Brené Brown who insists that two of the most powerful words in the English language are "me too."

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    5. I'm coming into this chat late but I feel this is worth sharing. The turning point for my husband and "getting it" was when I asked him to read a post on BWC which put words to my feelings exactly. He read it, and more, for over an hour. He came to me, crying, and said he never knew, until then, the pain he caused me. Perhaps it will work for a husband who is ready to feel your pain, too. God Bless.
      Carol the first

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  15. Phoenix im not totally in loop sime posts were deleted. .. its ok to have an out if control weekend ... you gotta reach the bottem before you can get to the top. Elle once told me you have to hit rock bottem them nowherw to go but up. Its so hard to ride the wave when you feel like you are drowning ...cheesy maybe those who wail around griw tired and go under ... sir idle. .. like when you backfloat to rest some so you can build endure and keep swimming. Hang in there friend. I hope this isnt out of line i only seen a portion of your posts. Ive been there terrified suffocating and drowning. I hope you find some breaths real soon e en if just little ones to stay afloat i know you are what i feel still in raw early stages. ... its agony. .. im 7mo and just feeling like i can get some bearings... i said some.....

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  16. Thank you, Wounded. You've been a comfort to me since I found this blog. I like your metaphor; floating on my back is very much what I've been doing for the last couple of days! I thought I was past the worst of the pain, but I got a blast of it this weekend. I am doing much better now. I know you are still hurting too, and I send hugs and loving thoughts to you, sweet friend!

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  17. I am in my 9 month after finding out my H monthly hobby was prostitutes. Gone from total despair, shock, anger now to pure physical and emotional exhaustion.
    Have had therapy talked asked every question but now i am all talked out. What is there left to say... My H is now upset with me as he feels i am not talking to him ignoring him ?????
    I haven't the energy for myself let alone him. He says he wants me back as I was??????...

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    1. I'm with you on the ??? A lot of those!!!!

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    2. Anonymous,
      I am so sorry for what you're going through. You've pretty much summed up the stages we all go through. I think it's perfectly normal to need some time to just recover from the shock and to digest what you've gone through and take time to consider what's your next right step. He's likely feeling fearful that you'll decide to leave, hence his need for you to talk to him, reassure him, etc. But this isn't about him. This is about you and your healing. If he's not in therapy, it sounds as if he should be. It's not your job to make him feel better about what he did. It's his job to sort it out and get clear on why he did it to ensure he doesn't go down that road again.
      Your job is to do what feels right and healthy for you now. If that means time, then give yourself time.
      As for you suddenly being the way you were? That ship has sailed. You have been changed by circumstances you didn't create. That's on him. That doesn't mean you're not still your same wonderful self. But you're someone who has been changed in ways that are still taking shape.

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    3. Thankyou.. was so good to read "i am still my wonderful self" i had forgotten that!.. I think numbness is the feeling now and totally stuck in limbo. So much time and energy has been spent grieving for what i thought I had, cherished.. just need time for me and to recharge, take stock and breathe.. just for me...

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  18. First of all LOVE going out to you ladies who are presently in the thick of the pain, confusion and big decisions. LOTS of love. Please know that no matter which way things go, you will make it.

    I mostly just read and send you guys love without posting but I wanted to say a little something today. I wanted to share that at about 15 months out now, this past few weeks, I'm starting to really absorb the idea that it wasn't MY FAULT. Just like Elle said! And I wanted to come back and yell... It's True! lol

    Because starting to actually believe it has lifted a veil of pain for me that was making it difficult to be happy and appreciate beauty the way I could before the affair. And I wanted to hopefully add a little to the ray of hope to the collection that exists on this site already.

    It took me soo long to start to *actually see* this. Like soo many others, the very first thing he did was tell me how everything was my fault. I had the one that imagined I gave him permission to "have a girlfriend" when I thought I was agreeing to a divorce... for months he held to this story. And I finally realized, he had only heard what he wanted to hear.

    It finally dawned on me why the blame... Because if he can make it my fault.... and ladies, we know all the excuses they use to try to make it our fault..... he gets to keep feeling like a great and wonderful guy and never face all the awful feelings that come with admitting you fucked up/are potentially a selfish asshole who needs re-evaluate a lot of his life. And that's what it's really all about, I think. Avoiding consequences. They are avoiding the nastiness they would have to face if they told us the truth instead. And that's simply NOT ON US. We can't make them not do that to save our broken hearts. They have to chose to face the music for themselves.

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    1. Absolute truth from you, Aelia. So glad you got there. It IS liberating to recognize that this was not about us. It was about them and their issues. They have the chance to learn and grow from the choice they made...or to avoid looking in the mirror and instead blame us. But either way, it doesn't change anything for us. We did not deserve this. We did not ask for this. In fact, we had nothing to do with their choice.

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  19. Aeliap:
    Wow, thanks!!! I still blame myself in many ways and he worries I will go back to not being affectionate enough, like I was before he decided in his own mind he thought our marriage was over because of my lack of affection, --- Just not over enough to share that with me, just over enough to go screw with someone else. He wanted cuddly type affection and hotter sex from me and in all honesty, I was not physically very affectionate in general so hence, my part of that guilt. In reality, he told me once before D day that I seemed like a pleasant room mate, not some horrible person, but he needed more from me, which I was trying to figure out. I had been 'putting out' sexually at least once a week at the time, but I also made my dissatisfaction with his drinking and over spending of money known to him, so yes, I could be negative in a depressed way as well. In his mind now though, our entire marriage was horrible before the affair but in his words, "Your doing great now". I can't tell you how much this hurts knowing because when I look back, I'm always grateful for what we've had in spite of the stresses. We've had it good in the grand scheme of things, but he does not appreciate this. So can I keep my good memories if his are so horrible? I'm finding this difficult, like it was all fake.

    WELL, I was awakened last night and couldn't get back to sleep. I won't go into details but I was worried a bit. It was mostly a trust but verify feeling so I checked his cell phone. No texts, no calls, which is the only way he said they communicated. But for some reason I dug deeper this time though and noticed his email goes through his phone, which I've never checked before. There was a message from him from last night at 7 (we were together at that moment!) asking the OW if she had been getting his Linked in messages!! Heart pounding, I went to his computer and saw only for a second, a linked in screen with a conversation about a client he already told me he has been trying to set up a meeting with. He also told me after D-day that the OW was involved in this particular job. The message thread had no love talk, and the only big thing I can remember before it disappeared (and I couldn't figure out how to get it back), is she said "Are you sure you want me there?" I could find no other history of any messages from her in email or otherwise except a forwarded message from her from a mutual business acquaintance from two weeks ago. Well, in addition to this there was some confusion on my part where I got two of his guy friends mixed up and it made it look to me like he was lying on something else and ta da ta da--- my brain put together a whole "it's over" story. I usually make myself keep control before I ever question him but not last night! I completely lost it. It was still dark before morning so he was awakened by me out of a dead sleep. I did not handle this well. I feel embarrassed now. I feel like it's a little push away to add to his list of why this will not work. On my list to save us of course is---NO CONTACT! He snuck it as well! Continued below---

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  20. His reaction is not "I'm so sorry honey". It is more, "I've never been through this, I don't know how to handle it---- etc. Still no details on how he is going to close this door and I'm afraid to ask. He actually told me no more questions as I was trying to sort the two friends mixed up thing and it's relation to OW. I, not calmly by any means, explained that if I know the truth I am fine. If I don't, my brain keeps trying relentlessly to put the pieces together like I'm some sort of mad man. After I explained, he answered them calmly, but not in a friendly way. Everything seems to add up to this being a more recent contact strictly because of this job. I'm still confused on the timeline but, am afraid to ask. I only asked for three things on D-day. No contact. Get a new wedding ring. Get a STD test. He had only done two so far, now he has done none. BTW, the STD test is part of what is making me uneasy. Come on, sex was the supposed reason for this. (We are being careful but come on already). He says it is 100% embarrassment and dread but he will 'do it today'. We'll see, I've heard it before. Yesterday I decided to take my ring off. I don't know if he has noticed. I wore it through EVERYTHING but just can't wear it till he has his own on! It's been six 1/2 weeks! He says the ring is meaningless to him but will wear it for me. Sorry for this ramble, sleep deprived once again! The reason I am still hopeful is he has done SO many wonderful things to try to heal us and I honestly am already 'checking in' less and less and feeling quite confident that he is not seeing her. So I went from forward moving and trust growing, to being able to believe it was ALL a lie, from reading one message. Amazing. Why did planning to sneak a business meeting seem harmless to him? It wouldn't be cheating, just more facts omitted? She was and probably still is desperately in love with him!! How should I react to this move he made going forward? Whatever I say I can just tell he completely does not get it. I desperately keep wanting to talk and explain why this contact is wrong and force it into his brain but he told me to stop talking about it. He is mad at me I think, but he won't say, just pouts. He won't outright say he's mad at me though. It is as if he is the victim in his heart although he has also said it's all on him, like a split personality. Like someone else said, maybe he is doing his best and that's it. I just have to decide if his best is what I want to have for the rest of my life. I get angrier about this as time goes on, not the opposite.

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    1. Anna,
      You're still in the raw mess of this so please be easy on yourself. I was far more of a maniac.
      I think the No Contact piece is huge here. I also think he doesn't really understand just how deeply betrayal hurts. He needs to man up and get an STD test (damn right it's embarrassing -- especially for women who've never cheated but still have to ask for one. It's humiliating!). He needs to get into therapy to figure out why he's willing to drag his feet, lie by omission and yet expect you to put up with it even though he's betrayed you in the worst possible way.
      Like you, I'm not a physically affectionate person and, like you, my husband routinely wanted more affection. But also like you, it was hard for me to express affection in a way that felt out of character for me while he was behaving in ways that bred resentment. It sounds as if your marriage had issues before he cheated that weren't being addressed in a healthy way.
      That is NOT to say any of this is your fault. It's not. And he no doubt constructed this story of just how awful your marriage was in order to alleviate a lot of the guilt that goes along with betraying the person you promised to love.
      But he needs to work through just how much of this narrative he constructed (subconsciously) in order to allow himself to cheat. And it sounds as if you both need guidance learning to communicate in a healthy way so that resentments don't just fester.
      Your anger isn't necessarily a signpost that you need to leave (though it might be). It IS an indication that you've got unaddressed resentments around this that are insisting upon your attention.

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    2. Elle: Thank you!! I have read this over a number of times and it really helps. I really think you nailed it with my resentments causing difficulty in affection etc. Knowing I'm not alone on this really helps. As far as him doing therapy, he hasn't outright said no but has always believed that therapy made his two sisters worse that have gone through it. He also informed me last night when I suggested a marriage counselor that he has spoken with a few different men that said officially "It does not work". Period. After my freak out two nights ago, he changed his passwords and turned off his tracking. When I told him how much this access has helped calm me so many times, even though I hardly use it, he said he'd rather be "done with it" than to wear a shock collar any longer. At this, I was ready to just leave I was so upset. Really. I was loosing it. When he realized this he backtracked and said thats not what he means. Don't leave etc. We actually concluded on a friendly note saying we will both just think it over. This morning on his own when he asked if I got any sleep and I told him no, he said he would turn it back on which he did. Later though it was not working but he claims he didn't turn it off. I don't have proof if he did but I'm very suspicious. He could have had a meeting today with the client and OW, I have no idea, and didn't ask. He has not changed his phone password back and I'm afraid to ask. I thought I saw his tracker when it came back on in the area the meeting would have been but I can't be sure now, I was in adrenyln mode!! I keep thinking maybe just tell him to turn the damn tracking off and I'll just live with this based on his informing me when he feels like it, till I decide I can't anymore, however I determine that decision . I just don't want to offer that till I'm sure of it. He is so over the top on detesting the tracking, I would hate if that is what kills the deal for him, but I realize it is of course going far deeper than that. I may push the marriage counseling as a Hail Mary if this continues to spiral down, I don't know if he will actually go. What more do we have to loose even it it turns out a waste of time? He is like dealing with Jeckyl and Hyde personalities, so kind, to so mopey and head strong. A real battle going on in that head. Tomorrow morning he actually is going to the lab to get some other blood work done and is having the STD test at that time---maybe---who knows------

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  21. Are there things we can't take back? Today I yelled at my H across a parking lot " get out of my life" This is what I said to the person I love most in the world..... A person I want to be with and rebuild my life with. I want to share my life with. I have not spoken to him since... I know he will be hurt. I say terrible things when I am hurt and afraid.

    Oh God the water is too deep and I am becoming too exhausted. How do we keep going. How do we stop hurting each other?

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    1. Becky,
      If that's the worst you've yelled, then you're about the sweetest betrayed wife I've ever heard of. I can't even print some of the things I said to my husband. I was VICIOUS. I threw a pizza at him. A HOT pizza. I was a crazy woman.
      Yes, the water is deep but think of us as your life ring. Hold on and just tread water for a bit before you take another stroke. Don't worry about "keep going" and just let yourself be.
      In the meantime, if you want some truly nasty words to throw your husband's way, I'm sure there are plenty of us who can help you. ;)

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  22. Becky, honey, I am praying so hard for you.
    Sometimes I feel such despair, too SometimBecky, honey, I am praying so hard for you.
    Sometimes I feel such despair, too. Sometimes it seems that for every step forward we take 2 steps back. How will we ever get past this? We can't ever undo the damage that has been done, How do we learn to trust each other again?
    Elle and others have done it, it can be done.
    Breathe, Becky. Do whatever comforts you, calm and take care of yourself. This time will pass, this torment will ease, it will get better. Hang in there, so that you can give me the same advice the next time I go off the deep end.
    We are fighting for out marriages, for our families. But no matter what happens, WE will survive. You are going to be okay. And so am I.
    Love and hugs,
    Phoenix

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    1. Yes, yes, you are going to be okay. You all have such deep compassion and such huge hearts. No matter what happens around you, YOU will be okay. Better than okay.

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    2. Thank you all - I think this hit a bit hard because lately the general direction has been better.

      Anyway, the support and perspective I find here is amazing. Elle, you are so right BWC is a life saver!! I am so grateful for you and this site.

      I think I really really need to spend some time being gentle with myself and self care. The holiday madness is starting to be overwhelming and I need to make sure I take care of me.

      Love and support to all
      Becky

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  23. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of H and the OW exchanging phone numbers... I don't know why I'm so hung up on it. They met about 2 weeks before so this date had no significance to either of them, but I fixated on that when I finally checked our cell phone records after DDay #3. H is trying to be supportive but he can't get why I'm focused on that, as in looking back at something like that only causes me more pain. I keep telling him it's because it's the date that, for me, my life changed irrevocably, without my knowledge. Dramatic? Maybe. I'm just so tired. Tomorrow is busy, I volunteered to run the Christmas party at my son's preschool and then we are buying a new car for me (according the H, I deserve it, not because of what he did, but because he is finally seeing and appreciating everything I did, do and sacrificed for him while we were building the business, but there's probably some guilt in there too), so we'll spend most of the day together (he's helping with my little guy's party), but I don't know if it's good or bad, part of me just wants to hide under the covers. I'm trying so hard to stay in the moment and not live in the past (or the future since this baby thing pushes me over the edge some days) but it is such an internal battle...

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    1. Ashes,
      You're probably at a holiday party with your son right now...and I hope you're able to take it all in. You are a freaking SAINT to volunteer to help run a children's party in the midst of all this but I do think it could be really good for you.
      Whatever your husband's motivation for helping you buy a new car, enjoy it.
      As for obsessing about the date, we all do that for various reasons. I love (please note sarcasm) how men are forever suggesting we just don't focus on things that make us sad. As if covering our eyes/ears and yelling "lalalalalala" will make this all go away. It's there. And by focussing on it, we process it. We move ourselves a bit further along. By ignoring it, it goes underground and comes out as resentment, or depression, or rage. Or, perhaps, as an affair. Let yourself be sad about that date. And at the same time, absorb some of the joy of the kids. You can feel both at the same time.

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  24. I am 10 months past Dday and not looking forward to the holidays. I felt as though I was doing better but then took a turn before Thanksgiving. December 12th is the day my husband saved a random photo of himself to his phone to use for his fetish online dating profile. The same day as our daughter's holiday show. The day came and past this year with lots of heartbreak and tears from me. My husband acknowledges the pain he's caused. He's sorry. Feels helpless that he can't help me. I finally saw my doctor for anti-depressants and have started them. I just want to feel better. I was seeing a therapist but felt like I was just spinning my wheels and haven't seen her since before Thanksgiving. I have hope the pain will lesson one day, but I worry if I'll ever feel any conviction about how to move on with our marriage. My husband wants to move on and build something better. But, I'm stuck on how I can build something with someone that chose to do such horrible things. All the while saying he loved me. It makes no sense and I'm not sure I want to even be with someone that can be so despicable. I feel like I disconnect/disengage with him a little every day. I look back at my hysterical bonding period and shake my head with what has happened in the last 10 months. I believe he may be sincere with his apologies, but I can't get over his continuing to contact his whore after he told me of the affair and said he broke it off. It was nonsense contact - some letter exchange, stupid emails. He was trying to be her friend - telling me it was "winding down." Then, every time I tell him how he could help me - provide me passwords, account info, keep seeing his therapist - he either delayed doing it or didn't do it at all. He claims he has nothing to talk to his therapist about.... somehow his 6 sessions with him have made him a new man. I just don't know what to do or think. I have to get through Jan and Feb anniversaries of his dates with this whore and Valentine's Day when all of this came out. He claims no sex addiction, no porn addiction, that I can just forget about the fetish stuff. I just feel so distrustful even though he's trying and provided me his work calendar and I can track him on his phone. I just don't know what to do and it drives me crazy not knowing when I will have any clarity on if I should stay or leave.
    ~Empty

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    1. Lately, I've been feeling like I'm with someone that is not emotionally safe. I'm not sure if anyone else ever feels this, but it just feels wrong to trust someone that made the choices to just totally destroy us. My husband has had past indiscretions - befriending female coworkers in the past to the point that something emotional was forming and I cut it off. He'd been to therapy after the 2nd time and this 3rd time with the online dating site just has sent me through the roof. I'm just not sure I can ever feel safe with him again.

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    2. Empty and Anonymous,
      You're both essentially saying the same thing: That you don't feel emotionally safe. Empty, you speak of a certain disdain that your husband is "a new man" after six sessions. And I'm with you. There's no way in six sessions to get the root of what takes someone into a fetish site and affairs all while lying to his spouse. There's a lot of stuff he's just not willing to get into. So I think your response to him -- the disengaging -- is your way of staying safe with someone who you don't trust. And what's he really doing to help you trust him? It's clearly not enough. Thing is, he betrayed you. He's asking you to give him a second chance. You're the one with the power here. What do YOU need?
      Same with you Anonymous. You don't feel emotionally safe because you're NOT emotionally safe. Your husband's behaviour has made that abundantly clear.
      So...you're both in the same boat. Either he takes steps to help you feel safe -- which means YOU setting the parameters for reconciliation -- or you continue with your guard up until he does or you move on. YOU get to choose. You are the ones with the power here. Not to change him...but to set the rules for reconciliation.

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  25. For a very long time I thought... no I strongly believed if ever my man would just as much as flirt with another woman, I’d be completely okay with it. Exactly. I wouldn’t color my whole world in red, wouldn’t explode in rage, but would simply sit back with a smile on my face to see where the actors lead the show. What’s their next move. With no pain, no feeling of being hurt, but with a strong taste of curiosity.

    As a person, I’m very understanding. Loyalty is what’s most important to me. For a very long period of time when my girlfriends asked me, what is that special thing I look for in a man... Hell, first of all, when that conversation occurred we were 16 at the time, secondly, how the f... could I know, right? I was a child. What the hell were they talking about, their looks? I mean, I guess looks are important. A sense of humor? Sure. Strength... absolutely. But now... Now I know nothing of it is of importance. What I was and still am looking for in a man... is loyalty.

    Cheating... maybe I could live with cheating, because, in a way, I still am, I’ve forgiven cheating, but what I can not forgive is lying. When a person opens their mouth and everything that comes out of it are plain lies, my lady boner simply dies.

    I loved a man... I mean we all have loved, believed that we love or felt strong affection towards someone at a time in our lives, but this is coming from a person, who doesn’t throw around ‘I love yous’ at every end of the sentence. I truly and utterly loved this person. I trusted him, I let him in on my dreams and fears, despite everyone telling me not to. Yes, I turned out to be exactly what I told I won’t. I’ve always considered myself a person who can do everything herself. If I need something, I go get it myself, if this something is not there, I make something that could be of use to me. Creativity is a virtue. So... I’ve been this strong, independent woman as long as I can remember myself and what is funny about this situation – I’m not the girl to take in strays if you know what I mean. I’m not mother Theresa, I’m no savior. I can spot a weak man from a distance. The best these kinds of men could wish from me – is being friends. And in the end... I took in a stray dog.

    Now for the scenario. Imagine a macho man, alpha male, or so it seems from afar. Everything screams about him – strength... passion... and power. He has this dark, mysterious stare. Eyes... simply mesmerizing, but I can tell you he’s no David Beckham, Justin Timberlake or whatever girls nowadays are fangirling about. If I needed to create a great intro for a book where you’re introducing the male, I couldn’t call him a Greek god... god no. His beauty was rough. Leather, tattoos... smelt like danger. And then something clicked in my head and I realized my life had been a bit too boring for the last years. I had almost been Buddha, of course with my crazy Friday adventures and what not, but something about him simply screamed excitement. And I knew I could get him to be mine even with all the girls covering his view from me. Yes, I’m that confident. As it turned out in the end, he had two girlfriends just a few days before we became an item. He is the kind of a man who hasn’t been alone. Never. Well not since his testosterone started kicking in. I like to overthink things and the question of ‘why?’ hasn’t left my mind ever since. I mean... you can’t be with a person and say you love her only two weeks in the relationship. That’s not really... how any of it works.

    You can’t love a person if you don’t love yourself.


    An excerpt of my friends blog. I think it has found it's right place among all these sad, but inspiring stories. http://insideitsraining.blogspot.com/2015/12/for-very-long-time-i-thought.html

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  26. Empty: I can relate to the dragging, putting off, not doing it at all etc. So maddening being on constant hold, waiting--- I wish I had something soothing to say but I'm here over tired but not able to sleep, just trying to sort this stuff out as well. Take care.

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  27. I woke up this morning and for some reason felt compelled to look at H's phone, I don't know why. There is the OW in his text message, number plain as day. I don't know how, since I blocked her number and double checked this morning, it's still showing blocked. She obviously intended it for someone else (the father of her children and my husband share the same first name, convenient) and it was something along the lines of "I'll pick them up, she has school" at 11:30, which makes sense because she works until 11 and he keeps the kids while she's at work. BUT obviously blocking the number didn't work. My H is devastated because he insists that he's done nothing wrong and hasn't been talking to her and I'm a mess. How do I believe him after all of the lies? I want to text her back in the worst way and be like "wrong person" just to see what she says, but that's stupid and a waste of time. He offered to leave his phone with me all day, told me to text or call her, whatever is going to make me believe him, but there's nothing that will. That's just the sad, sad truth. I do not know if I can believe him and it just sucks. I just want to run away.

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    1. Ashes,
      There's not much in this that sounds like they're still in touch, except that she still has him as a contact. I'd be inclined to let it slide. I know it's triggered all sorts of fear in you but his response -- to let you have his phone, for instance -- makes me think he's not hiding anything. But it's another indication that when someone has revealed himself to be a liar then everything that comes out of his mouth will be suspect.
      What he CAN do is continue to help you regain trust. By being open. Giving you access to his phone, etc. Reassuring you. With time (yes, that four-letter word), you'll either see that his words match his actions or that they don't. It's a leap of faith.
      If you're so inclined, I don't think it's a bad idea to text her back a short, curt "please delete this person from your contacts as he does not want to hear from you, even accidentally". And then...let it go. If she responds, don't pay any attention. Delete and move on.

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    2. Thanks Elle. Unfortunately my husband is apparently a masterful liar. I called our cell phone company and he's been receiving texts from her number for a few weeks (apparently if you block a number, they can do what's called a voiceover ip and the block won't work, who the hell knew?). She reached out to him about the baby and how it's going to work and then continued to play on his emotions. I did break and call her after I screamed at him. She said he told her he was staying with me, but that they'd talk about her feelings, his feelings, and that he's staying with me but has a hard time not talking to her. my husband says she's lying about that part, that they never talked about his feelings, every time she mentioned wanting to be with him, he would say he wanted to be with me and stop it at that. It's hard to see the truth between the lies, but it's clear my counselor nailed it on the head when she said the OW is delusional. H says he knew he should tell me, but we were making such progress that he was scared to mess it up. He's paying for that currently as I guaranteed him and I truly believe, that if he would have come home and showed me her text, that would have built my trust greater than anything else he could do, but instead I'm sitting here thinking about divorce and how to return the car we just bought yesterday. I cannot even see the fucking headlights right now, it's so dark. I did tell her that he always tells me he doesn't give a fuck about her. I asked him not to talk to her anymore without me being present but she called from a number he didn't recognize and answered it. She told him I called, asked if he knew I called and then said that I told her that he tells me he loves me and what's to be with me. He told her he's been telling her that all along and she replied that she didn't know because he never used those exact words, so he did. He told her he loves me and wants to be with me and she started crying and got off the phone... Don't know how much to believe, but our employee was standing beside him, so I'm inclined to believe him about that. but how do I rebuild with someone who can't be honest, especially because this was my worst fear realized, being shut out regarding the baby... I want my husband, I want us to work and I truly believe he's broken, he's been crying all day, but how do we recover? He said if I say the word, we'll just pay child support, the OW apparently told him a few times she wasn't sure she wanted him around the baby if he wasn't going to be with her. I can't deal with that topic right now, but it has to factor in if I decide to stay... I can't see the next step, I can't see past the pain in my heart and head. Thankfully my parents had planned to keep my little guy tonight, I'm counting down the hours til 6. The week before Christmas... How do I keep it together for my four year old? How do I keep it together for myself?

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    3. He said he didn't mind leaving the phone because the last conversation they had was the end of it. She kept pressuring him to meet in person to discuss the baby and he refused, so it ended with her saying f** you and him saying it back. I don't know what to believe. That lines up with some of what she said, but who knows. Plus, why would she tell me the truth?

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    4. Ashes,
      I hope you'll take some time to really think through your conditions of reconciliation. All this back and forth, "but she called me" and "I didn't tell her that" stuff is gonna make you feel even crazier. I think he needs to go No Contact with her. Does he even know he's the father at this point? (Sorry -- can't recall all the details of each person who posts.)
      And he needs to figure out, if he is the father, what role he wants to play in this child's life. And let you know so you can determine if that's a role you're willing to tolerate.
      Ashes, this is about you and what you want. You can't undo what's done. But you can figure out whether or not you want this going forward. If you do, then what does that look like for you? Personally, I would insist on absolutely no contact until the baby is born. There's no reason for him to have any contact with her. And I would make it clear that if there IS any contact that he doesn't immediately tell you about, it's a deal-breaker. You can decide what that means. Separation? He moves to the guest room or the couch? Divorce? You decide.
      Make it clear that you're playing by YOUR rules now. It will be hard. And don't make any consequences that you aren't prepared to follow through with. But he seems to be the one calling the shots (and then hiding them). That's the perfect recipe to convince you that he's learned absolutely nothing in this and that he's a bad bet for a stable sane safe future. He needs to get his shit together or get out.
      Sorry for the tough words but this is incredibly destructive to you.

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    5. Elle, I agree. And yes, we're playing by my rules now. I thought we were before, but obviously there was still a piece missing. I did insist on no contact previously or at the very least, contact through me, but I failed to set consequences. I don't know why each time he fails me I'm surprised and disappointed, but no more. I can't even say I'm surprised, but yet I am, does that make sense? I don't know my next move, my next right step. I just need to get through the holidays for my son's sake. My husband is, once again, disgusted with himself, but that apparently doesn't affect him when his feet are over the fire. A new counselor for him is a condition, even if I don't stay, for my son's sake. I'm numb, but unfortunately, know too well that the numbness will fade. The OW had a prenatal DNA test done with the other possible father and it was negative, so in my mind, not a guarantee, but pretty positive that it is h's. He said she was pretty bitter about me, why was he defending me each time they talked and why wasn't he leaving me. I believe she got pregnant to try to get him to leave me... Delusional. Sometimes I get insecure about her, but no more. I've got a good head on my shoulders and I'm a good fucking wife and a good person. I told him I don't want the man he must be with her because that's not the man I married and that's the only man I'm willing to stay married to.

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    6. Oh my heart just sank when I read this! I am so terribly saddened to hear this. "H says he knew he should tell me, but we were making such progress that he was scared to mess it up." Why? What don't they get about HONESTY?" I agree, showing or telling you about contact would have built MORE trust. It is a double tiered lie to boot. When you saw the first text he could have come clean then. He had two chances to be transparent. Hang in there whatever your next move is. At least he let you have his phone. Mine changed his password after my last new text discovery.

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    7. Please listen to Elle she is right. I have never heard her be so blunt in the last 2 years. Do what she says please. You can't see it because your in the middle of an emotional storm. Others have posted similar advice to you. It sounds like your husband is depending on you get him out of this mess. He is not broken, he is selfish, lying asshole who got caught in a mess. You say he is crying so what? Why do you care? You feel like he is telling the truth because an employee was standing near but he lied about talking to the OW? Elle is so right read her words again again. She is in your corner if you will just listen. I hurt for you but you need to grow a back bone with your baby making asshole. You say you do but then he lies. He is not very scared of you taking action is he? If he lies to you, he's not that afraid of losing you is he? Who is all in? Listen to Elle or your chance of happiness is less and the misery scale is more. Get tough, bring out the bitch in you. As I said several weeks ago you can ruin his life for the rest of his life. Put Elle's advice into action, now. He is blowing you off big time. He wants you to feel sorry for him. You don't need to come to his rescue. He needs to be rescuing you.

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    8. Ashes,

      Your pain and frustration must be exquisite and head banging crazy making. I'm so sorry. My H fathered a child with his OW too, and I feel your pain. The baby is with the OW and her husband, so not a part of our lives, but I feel that pain every day knowing that there is a child out there who looks like my husband but did not come from me. A tangible reminder always of his infidelity and her betrayal of hers and my friendship. I have a question for you, you said "The OW had a prenatal DNA test done with the other possible father and it was negative,..." If she could do this for the other possible father, why can't she do it for your husband? Then you can know before the baby is born and not be torn apart by the anxiety of waiting for the answer. I don't know that I would believe her saying that the report came back negative for this other possible father, and if you get the test done for your husband, I would insist on the report being mailed directly to your home from the lab/dr.'s office. Heart hugs to you, prayers and hope coming your way.

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    9. Thanks everyone, for your responses.. The prenatal DNA tests are $1700 each time, I checked into it immediately when I found out she was pregnant. We just don't have that kind of money to spend. They are supposedly very accurate but will not hold up in court as far as child support and custody are concerned, so we'd have to repeat it after the baby is born. I do have a copy (actually I think she was stupid enough to send me the original) of the report showing its negative against him.

      My husband and I have been doing some heavy talking and this is my final line. He's recounted as much as he can remember of the texts and I believe him as far as the conversations with her went, but emotionally he is broken. Broken because he struggles with telling the truth. I do believe he is struggling with depression but I cannot help him if he can't open himself up to the help that's out there, he struggles opening up in counseling, whether I'm there or not, although I think he actually does better when I'm there, about his emotions anyway, but I cannot fix him and I cannot keep trying to, Lynn, you're right about that. The ball is in his court now to get help.

      The OW in this case is using the pregnancy and has been since she found out, to attempt to get him to leave me. This last to round was a lot of her crying about it not being fair to the baby, why won't he leave me, etc. The more he resisted even meeting with her in person to talk about how this is going to work, the less time she decided he should see the baby when it's born, as a way to manipulate. At this point, H is in unclear what he wants. He feels a responsibility towards the baby, but also feels like if she doesn't want him involved, it would be easier on all of us and would spare us having to explain this to my four year old. There would be no father figure if he isn't involved and from the comments she's made to both he and I, this child, regardless of involvement, is going to grow up hearing: he didn't want you, he wanted an abortion, he wouldn't leave his family for you, etc. H understands that it is not just her choice alone once the baby comes, he has options through the courts, but it's difficult to see the best path, for us and the child. I'm done trying to fix it or help, but if I'm not involved in the conversations or am not made aware that they are talking, I'm done. And for me, that means done completely. I truly believe that he wants to be the man he was before this happened, the one that had a hard time telling me a white lie at Christmas even, but for whatever reason, he hasn't been able to be that man, and I truly believe he doesn't want to be with her (she's really shown her true colors through this) but his reaction is to always keep any hint of her a secret ( which is probably habit from the affair) and I'm not okay with that. So, time will tell if he can prove himself to be honest or not.

      I keep repeating my next right step... For me, that's to get through the holidays and try to enjoy them the best I can. I want my marriage and I want my husband and so, I'm giving him one last chance, but I'm not fighting for him anymore, he has to prove to me that he can be the man I need him to be.

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  28. Hi ladies. I've posted a handful of times over the past almost 10 months since Dday, but I mostly just read your stories and find comfort in this community of women who are going through something similar to what I am.

    To recap...I found out in February, after 25 years together, that my H had a 3.5 week affair with a co-worker the previous September. They had been working closely together for a year or so before that, and prior to the minute that she kissed him, he thought they were just "good" friends. He was suffering from major depressive disorder at the time (taking medication that actually made him worse...prescribed by our family doctor who had no idea how severe H's trauma had been or the nuances of anti-depressants)and was an absolute mess. He felt unloved by me (I knew that at the time...I can be a critical bitch and, coupled with his depression, nothing could convince him otherwise) and here was a woman telling him that he was "perfect", that she adored him, that he was everything anyone could ever want in a man. (BARF) He learned long afterward that she has never had a relationship with a man who she didn't "steal" from a wife. She has a long, sordid history of absolutely horrific and, sometimes, criminal behavior, and we have since learned that she has multiple mental health diagnoses, including narcissism and borderline personality disorder. After he ended the physical affair, and when he still thought they were two friends who'd made a horrible "mistake", she began revealing that her current live-in fiancé was abusing her...physically, emotionally and sexually. For months, he was manipulated into believing that her life was in danger. She would text at all hours of the day and night to tell him she was afraid and he would spend hours trying to contact her after she'd send these texts and then disappear off the grid (something we also learned is part of her MO...how she keeps men worried about her so they can't move on). Eventually, he "saved" her and helped her move out (all with my help and blessing, as I had no idea what they'd done) and then it all unraveled. It became clear that she had assumed that he would be taking her fiancé's place. The sweet, innocent act went totally out the window and he saw someone he'd never seen before. She was crazed, she was angry and she was dangerous. There had been nothing "romantic" between them for about 4 months at that point, in his mind...but she had just been biding her time, building an entire life around keeping him tied to her to that when she finally left her fiancé, my H would be waiting.

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  29. Part 2

    It was when she met me, that her plan took a nosedive. All of the wives of her other conquests had been women who, in her mind, weren't as attractive or intelligent as she is. She'd known those women; however, and had never met me until I helped "save" her from her abusive relationship. The truth is, she's "okay", but I'm prettier, sexier, and more intelligent than she is. Bam. I said it. She had a persona that she used to seem sweet and innocent, and that quickly fell away when she met me. I saw the look on her face the first time she saw me, when my husband approached me to give me a kiss...she looked almost psychotic. One of the first things she said to me was, "I had no idea you were so beautiful." This was not a compliment, mind you...she was pissed. It was said like an accusation. At the time, red flags were going off...but I assumed there was a one-sided crush on her part (although at the time, that was true...he wasn't romantically interested in her). She quickly lost her damned mind; however, and it all came undone. She'd never been abused, she'd lied about everything...and this was what she'd done every single time she tried to trade in her current husband/fiancé. She'd accused every single man she'd ever been with of abuse in order to get the new man to save her. She revealed herself to be very dangerous...complete sociopathic tendencies. Once she realized that he wasn't helping her because he loved her, but because he was trying to be a good man, she was livid. She'd known a little of his family history, so she'd known that abuse was a hot-button issue for him, but she'd assumed that his interest in helping her was specific to HER...not something he would do for anyone. One of the other things she said to me that day was, "I didn't realize that Kurt was so protective of women." When I told her that he'd always been that way and had once beat the crap out of a stranger her saw hitting his wife in a parking lot, instead of being happy to have such a friend, she was angry that the protectiveness was not just for her, I guess...because within minutes, she was a bitch on the warpath. It was like watching someone come completely undone...like something out of a movie. She was terrifying and my H and I were stunned, to say the least.

    In any case, it took about a month after she showed her true colors for my husband to come clean about what he'd done all those months before. And to say I was devastated would be, as you all know, a gross understatement. I had never sobbed like that in my entire life. I had never laid myself bare like that. I had never been vulnerable like that. I was inconsolable. And he was shell-shocked. He had never considered what it would do to me to find out. In his mind, I was only with him out of duty and convenience and a familiar kind of love, maybe...so he was completely gob-smacked by the way I fell apart. This was my best friend, the only person I'd ever truly trusted, telling me that he'd betrayed me at what was the very core of who I was, who we were. It was inconceivable that the man telling me those things was the same boy I fell in love with back in college, the man I'd raised children with, the person I'd pledged to spend my life with.

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  30. I've admitted here that my marriage had gotten pretty bad around the time of his actual affair. I even had a flirtation of my own that could have gone very badly if the circumstances had allowed (I like to think I wouldn't have done it, but that period of my life was pretty unhappy...H's depression and my own issues had taken their toll). But, hand to God, I think I truly realized just how much I loved that man when I knew that I might have to kick his ass out on the street. I'd always said that cheating was a deal-breaker, no exceptions...but for all the lip service I gave him about him finding an apartment and the lists I made about what things we'd have to cut back on and how to make two households work, I couldn't imagine my life without him. I didn't want to.

    So, eventually, I agreed to try to work on our marriage. And it hasn't been easy. The past 10 months have been the hardest of my life...with some really high points and some really low points. For every step forward, we sometimes take 2 steps back...mostly because, for as much as he regrets what he did, for him, he can put it in the past (he had already neatly compartmentalized it as soon as he'd ended the sex) and not give her or what they did a second thought...other than the very real disgust he has for her when he can't avoid the topic. He'd just as soon never hear her name again, never be reminded of what a pathetic sucker he was (his words), never have to remember that gaslighting, the lying, the cruelty he inflicted on me during that time in order to appease his guilty conscience and hide his gross behavior. And I don't blame him...seriously, who would want to be reminded of just how low they can sink? How much they hurt their best friend? How they have the ability for that kind of wickedness? It's awful I'm sure. And he just wants it to be "over".

    BUT...it ain't "over" for ME!! I still have moments where it all just comes out of nowhere and punches me in the stomach. My eyes still randomly fill with tears because something triggers me. I still bring it up out of the blue when a thought hits me.

    Look, here's what I know to be true about his affair from his persepctive: He wasn't looking for it. When she kissed him, he was surprised and when she proceeded to unbutton his pants, he was downright shocked. The sex was pretty bad. He could barely perform. She was very aggressive (and not in a sexy "rawr" way). He didn't like her body...it's nothing like what he personally appreciates. She has a patch of hair under her lip that he found unappealing. He spent the entire time wishing they could just go back to being friends, but was afraid the adoration and compliments would stop. Yup, he was the "woman"...in it for the pretty words (not that he hates blow jobs), while she just wanted to get off (oh, did I mention that she's also a sex addict?) and decide if he would make a good next Mr. OW.


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    1. Dana,
      Ten months seems like a long time. But you've experienced trauma. As you note (and so many of us also note), nothing prepared us for just how gut-wrenching betrayal is. It does go to the very core of what we believe in this world, it changes how safe we feel in this world. It challenges our sense of trust in ourself. If we're wrong about this, our thinking goes, what the hell else are we wrong about?
      So please, be gentle with yourself. This is going to take a long time. Your husband's wish to move past this is logical...but not helpful. He needs to be able to talk to you about it. It's amazing to me how quickly our pain dissipates when our husbands are able to just be with us in it, to reassure us that they will never ever do that to us again. Conversely, when a reminder hits us and our spouse responds by ignoring it, or dismissing it, or making it about him and his discomfort instead of about us and our pain...then the pain just gets worse. We wonder what the hell we're enduring all this for if our marriage is still one-sided. If he still doesn't get just how excruciating this is.
      It sounds like you need support when you're triggered. Of course, he wants this to "go away". I'm guessing you would love nothing more than to never think of it again. But it doesn't work that way. The quickest way to make it "go away" is to process it. To talk about it when necessary. I wrote about this on a blog that I wrote for husband's called "Just Talk About It for F%$@'s Sake". He might find that helps him better understand just how hard this is for you.

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  31. But none of that really makes me feel any better. It just doesn't. He still had sex with her...intercourse on 3 occasions. He still let her lead him into closets for blow jobs. He still texted her behind my back...deleting every single one so I wouldn't see it. He still lied on 2 occasions that he was working late, when he was really in an abandoned park with her (not one encounter was anything but crass). He was still a complete stranger from the man I've known for most of my life. And that is very hard to come to terms with.

    I think I've "forgiven" him. I know that he never intended for things to happen the way they did, I know he regrets it to the very core of his soul, I know that he hates himself for what he did to me and I know that he learned every possible lesson about infidelity the hard way. He'll never look at himself the same way again. But, unfortunately, I don't think I will either. This has changed the way I think of him...not necessarily the way I feel about him...but the way I perceive who he is as a husband and friend, and as a man. His ability to do what he did to me still shocks me...no one would have known he had it in him! Yes, he could be a real shit when he was angry (still can be), his father was a maximum impact defender and he's picked up some of those tendencies. When he feels bad or when emotions get to be too much, he either shuts down or says something hurtful and blaming that he doesn't even mean in order to alienate you just to get the pain and self-hatred to stop. But those instances are few and far between, for the most part (although we've had some doozies during all of this upheaval) and he always apologizes and tries to make amends.

    I guess that, like so many of you, I'm kind of stuck right now. Yes, we could have a lovely marriage from now on. But my heart is just not ready to let go of the betrayal. I don't hate him for what he did...in fact, I think I understand how it could have happened, how things got so out of control. But it's still "there". Regardless of my understanding and forgiveness, it's still an ever-present reality for me...and in moments of sadness and despair, it is easy for all of that logic to fly right on out the window.

    We both really struggle with it. He was wants so badly to put it to rest, to use the lessons learned to have something better, and to never hear her name or what they did come from my lips. But that's not where I live right now. No matter how hard I try. And I do make some effort to not beat him over the head with every random thought I have...but eventually, I can't hold it in any longer and it just "happens". And then we're both hurting, angry and scared all over again. Yay.

    So, you may be wondering why I'm posting all of this all of the sudden?

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  32. last part...I think:

    Well, 3 weeks ago, we found out that I have a very serious illness. I'm on disability because I'm not allowed to work for right now until we can see if we can get things under control to a point where its not dangerous for me to return. I will likely be dealing with this for the rest of my life...which may be shorter than we'd ever anticipated. I'm in a lot of pain right now, which will hopefully subside over the next few months...but which can return at any time if the disease causes further damage.

    So, 3 weeks ago, I was a capable (even while still emotionally hurting) 45 year old woman, trying to repair a broken marriage and feeling pretty positive about the long1term outlook for it, still reeling from my husband's betrayal, but also aware that I was strong and sexy and determined to have the life I wanted.

    And all of that has changed. I'm completely vulnerable, all of the cards I was holding are gone, there's no illusion that I'm prepared to walk if he doesn't keep up (I know...that's not something I should have counted on, but it gave me a little bit of satisfaction sometimes when he expressed worry that I would eventually decide that I didn't want to keep trying with him), I feel like crap, I probably look just as bad...and I'm so damned depressed that I can't get out of my own way.

    If I'm not thinking about the fact that I could die or suffer a catastrophic health event at any moment, I'm thinking about his affair. I'm completely consumed by how horribly my life has spun out of control. All of the growth? It's like it never happened. It's as if everything came crashing down 3 weeks ago rather then having those months of work and healing that came prior to it.

    He's doing his best to support me...but he has no idea what it's like to be cheated on and he has no idea to find out you have an illness like mine. And he certainly can't understand what one has to do with the other...why I'm so obsessed again with the affair. I don't know that I have a great grasp on that either. I've always had control issues...a traumatic childhood gifted me the need to feel like I need to control everything around me, and when I can't, I get a little punchy. And his betrayal and this illness are 2 things that have changed my life irrevocably...both without my consent, without my control. So, for me, they are intertwining, and, frankly, causing me more stress than is healthy right now.

    I know that I probably need to go back into therapy to deal with all of this...but our therapist is also out on medical leave and finding a new one will take more energy that I have right now.

    So...there's my novel. I'm sorry for the word vomit. I think I just needed to get it out. Thank you for reading, if you were able to stick with all of the run-on sentences and stream-of-conscious rambling.



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    1. Oh Dana. I responded to your other posts before the other ones showed up in my feed. I'm so so sorry for what you're going through. What a sucker punch, right when you've been working so hard.
      I want to tell you though that all the healing you've done so far isn't gone. Being faced with a scary diagnosis is enough to throw anyone off balance, let alone someone who's already reeling from betrayal. So you are dealing with far more than anyone ever should.
      Let your husband comfort and support you, which means admitting your vulnerability and (like you -- a crazy childhood left me with, ahem, control issues) accepting that you don't have control over this. But, Dana, control is an illusion. None of us can ever control anything other than our response to what life throws at us. But that's enough. You're an incredibly strong woman. You're loyal and loving and forgiving and compassionate. Now it's time to throw some of that at yourself. Be gentle. Be compassionate. Love yourself through this. Let yourself be scared. Let yourself be vulnerable. You've a wellspring of courage there that will help you through.
      And yes, I think a therapist would certainly help. But I'm also wondering about a support group. Just as you've found comfort here, what about meeting with people who DO know what you're going through. Can your doctor put you in touch with others who've gone through a similar diagnosis? Is there a hospital social worker who works with people who are given tough diagnoses? You need support. You need help staying afloat right now. If you don't have the strength to make the calls, let your husband make them. Please don't go through this alone.

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    2. Actually, your replies were just perfect...by not realizing that I was writing a multi-chapter novel, you were able to address my issues in 2 much-needed ways!

      The man really does think he's been the epitome of shame, repentence and understanding. But, when push comes to shove, he reverts to that scared little boy and pushes and shoves back...then quickly falls asleep like a narcoleptic. Seriously, it can be infuriating. Logically, I think he understands what I'm so hurt, but he knows that when HE hurts, he just packs that up into a box and hides it somewhere he can't see it...so I should be able to do the same. Plus, I'm supposed to KNOW how much he loves me, how he never wanted to replace me, how he's so sorry for hurting me and how he never meant for any of it to happen. I'm supposed to KNOW that I'm his best friend, his soul mate, the love of his life. I'm supposed to KNOW that he'd never done anything like that before and that he never will again (this, I believe...this one time was enough to make anyone swear off infidelity forever...seriously).

      Well, buddy, I'm going to need more time. I'm going to need some pretty, heartfelt words, and gifts wouldn't go amiss either, quite frankly. Be affectionate (yes, I know that doesn't come naturally for you...tough darts), listen when I need to vent or cry about what you did (yes, I know, it hurts your soul to see what you've done to me, but that's the price of betrayal) and for god's sake, stop telling me to "shhhhhh, baby, c'mon, don't do this to yourself" when that happens (because YOU did this to me, YOU put me in this position).

      And then there's this illness. For the last 2 nights he has listened and comforted while I cried over all of it, he's listened while I cried more tears over his affair, over our marriage and over my feelings of brokenness. He's been better than he's ever been...probably scared shitless that all of the emotional trauma is going to exacerbate my symptoms and cause a medical crisis. I know he's scared as well...I do truly know that I'm his best friend, and facing the loss of that person (either through death or the illness taking away what makes me "me") must be terrifying. Luckily, he has those boxes to stuff all of that fear and pain into!

      Unfortunately, it's a rare disease that doesn't have a local support group...but I did find a mildly active forum that's been helpful. And after the holidays, I'm going to look for an appropriate therapist (one who deals with infidelity AND illness, if possible). Piece of cake, right?

      Thank you, Elle, for your words of encouragement. You manage to never sound trite or formulaic. Every word comes across as sincere and specific to each person's needs. Incredible.

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    3. I do hope you're able to find some support for the illness side of this. It's such a comfort to have people who have gone ahead and can pull us through.
      And yes, your husband needs to do some hard work to learn to feel his feelings...and let you have your feelings, without immediately insisting you not feel them. And you're right. You're not doing this to yourself. You're honouring your own feelings around the pain that HE created. It will be hard for him...but nothing compared to what you're going through. I imagine your illness is also triggering all sorts of shame and fear in him. I think it would be a good idea for him to also be in therapy. To help him learn to process his feelings but also to give him a place to share his anxiety around your health.
      Hang in there Dana. We're here. And I really hope you're able to create a network of support around you. Give yourself the holidays to just digest all this.

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    4. Dana, So sorry to hear of your sickness. What a terrible thing to have to deal with on top of everything else! Take care.

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    5. Dana ... im sorry to hear of your illness i hope you find support emotional as well as medically. Similarly well kinda not really as my was injury and recovery from surgery ... 6mo from dday i suffered an injury that later required surgery that made me very limited physically fucked with me emotionally and made me more vulnerable then ive ever been in my life. In the same year i knew the pain of betrayel which cuts to the core and pain of injury which physically was more then ive ever known or imagined ... how could i count and depend on the person that hurt me so deeply? I had too! What choice did i have and to this control freak that was excuitating but i needed my h more then ever and i wanted him his love support caring ... elle spun it that perhaps this was,my time to focus on me take it all in and hopefully find my strength to di what i needed to do to not only get thru but conquer and elle said perhaps leaning on my h is his chance for some redemption? Hummm now that was a thought huh .... i found it was much easier to accept the help the need then try to resist it esp with everything going on ... the affair is still background noise not as far back in my rearview mirror as wanted but my h is making some strides and helping me as im recovering and i have much time on ny hands to sit with all my pain ... which is supppse to make us process it! day by day girl. I just wanted to say i kinda know what your going thru inside with the need for help and i know its a struggle. I hope your prognosis turns to a positive and you find a path for some help and comfort full circle. I had a big dose this year of not being in control but im still standing ...you will be too. Minute by minute day by day just take in as far as you can see or as much as you can take ... thats it ... elle has much good advise and told me way back you dont need to juggle 50 balls in the air or be perfect ... you just need to show up. Big hugs girl i hope this is comforting. .. our situations different but many of the feelings the same si i thought id reach out ... if u need any guarantee to hold onto HERE you are not alone.

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  33. Hello Elle! I'm in desperate need of help. My boyfriend has this friend who lives in another country. They met online one year before he started with me. Then when we started he went to see her in Italy. He kept saying they were only friends and we've been together for like a month or so, i didn't overthink it too much. Then, after 2 months he went again. Then i started overthinking and I knew something wasn't quite right. He came back with hickeys and stated they were mine. Of course, I couldn't believe a word he was saying. I forgave him, suffered a lot but got past it sooner than I would have thought. Then, after being together for a year, (7months ago) I found out he was texting her, which we agreed upon a long time ago, the problem is that they were sexting, sending nudes and stuff like that. he was telling her how perfect, how beautiful, how sexy she was, all those nasty things. Since then, I am devastated. I am obsessed with her. The worst part is that in that moment I told him that it's her or me, he can't have any contact with her or it's over. Then after a few weeks he told me that he was really worried about her (she has depression and ed) and asked me to let him text her (I could watch). I agreed and then he started texting her again, sometimes I watch, sometimes I don't. And it's killing me inside. I mean, I know now they're JUST FRIENDS because whenever I see their conversations they're normal and nost of the times pretty serious. I really don't want to lose him, and i need to find a way to figure this out. I tried to make him choose between me and her again but that would not be okay for him, so I don't know how to find a way to be okay, the both of us. Whenever I see him texting her I get really angry and I start making him feel bad about it (I dont know if I should or no). I obsess over her, I go to her fb page daily, I always see if she's online on Whatsapp when he is (to see if he is maybe texting her too while he's texting me), I just want to punch her in the face ovarall. Also, there's the comparing myself to her (she had beautiful blond long hair, I have short red hair, she has a nice bottom, i am skinnier, she is nice and understanding, i am crazy and gealous, etc) and this isn't healthy at all. I need help. I asked him for help and he now texts her only once a few days (today he told me he was feeling bad because he barely talks to her lately and her mother had problems and stuff like that). Anyway, this is my story, a bit long, sorry about that. I hope you can find a way to answer this, and thank you so much in advance!

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    1. Michelle,
      Your boyfriend is cheating on you. Whether it's real life or cyber, it's cheating. He's having a relationship with someone outside of your relationship.
      It's also clear that he thinks it's okay for him to proceed to do what he's doing. It's disrespectful to you. But, on some level, you're allowing it.
      You need to decide exactly what relationship you want with this guy...and create some boundaries. At this point, however, I'd be inclined to walk away from this guy. If this is happening already, I suspect there's more to come.

      Delete
  34. So I just had another sort of "D day" except not in discovering cheating but in him telling me he is "trying to fall back in love with me". He say's he loves me but is still angry about how I treated him. He also said he can see I'm doing everything possible to make amends and go forward but he can't lie and act like he's happy. I asked if all of his issues are because of our relationship or both him and our relationship. He said it's all him in one breath, but says it's how I treated him in the next. I asked what he would feel when he finally 'falls back in love' with me. He said like we used to be, before things were bad. (which in some of his renditions it was bad all the way from the beginning--). I can promise you, I have a clear conscience on this, I've never said anything cruel to him other than telling him he drinks too much and some of his friends are drunks. I'm constantly telling him he makes enough money, we just need to downsize to the appropriate life style, which I used to ride him about, but never in a hurtful way.

    He read Elle's 'Letter to Husbands' and the 'Healing from Betrayal telling our story' last night as I asked him. This is a good thing, he could have ignored me. He's been very accommodating in this kind of stuff, but won't say a word about it after. I won't go into details but when I tried to talk to him today I was hoping reading the letter from Elle would produce a different response than in the past but no, more bringing up my past meaness and telling me he won't give me the new phone password, but will allow me to still track him, while making it clear he does not want to do these things at all. After I pushed he said he'll go ahead and give me the phone password as well. I don't even want it this way now. I have a horrible sinking feeling that he is only doing what I ask till we get through Christmas for our son, and then he plans to dump me, but that could be me and my PTSD. He did say a few times we just need to get through Christmas and mentioned our son this time.

    He is still attracted physically to me though but I guess men can have sex with anything, I'm not sure. When I offered to leave for awhile when we get back from our Christmas family visit, he seemed to think that was just fine, but then I realized he thought I meant for him to leave. He did not bring up leaving on his own ever though, it was my subject. I told him that if he ever leaves that is my one solid "it's over" at this point. He was really creeped out by my tirade Tuesday night and hasn't gotten over it. I'm getting worse emotionally with our talks and it is probably pushing him away further, but I can't help it. Today after we were done talking, he said "thanks for talking to me". ??? He hates every second of it and tried to shut me down before he had a second thought and listened nicely. He is trying so hard to be 'cordial' but it is so off. No connection. CONTINUED BELOW

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  35. Tomorrow he wants to run around and do errands in the morning and I am full blown in 'don't trust' mode now. (they used to meet Monday late morning). I am thinking of telling him I want to go with him, I wonder what reaction I will get. He says he is buying the new wedding ring so it would be nice to be with him. He is only getting it for show for the family, not because he's committed obviously. He said I asked him to be honest so he was which brought him to tell me about not being in love with me. I am sick deep to the core all over again. He told me at the very beginning on the day after D day that he was trying to fall back in love with me. I've done everything I can since and thought he was in love with me again! This is devastating beyond what I can handle right now. It's like D day all over as far as sick/no appetite/ tears etc. And I have no way of knowing if he is in contact with her, after that I'm thinking why would he dump her if he's not set on me? The pattern completely disproves him still seeing her. Completely. He is with us most of the time. But still I wonder.

    We leave for 12 days on Tuesday to a different state, staying with my family. I'm not sure what to put in my head to get me through this! I keep hoping he really loves me but just doesn't realize it. He is so kind most of the time and only mopey the rest, never mean unless it's one of the talks I initiate and he reminds me why this all started. When I read the texts from OW, she said "you are doing this for her". I thought he may have told her he owes it to me to try. He may be staying with me out of duty, not love. I can't live with that. How do I get through this now? He sees I'm desperate and I don't want him to see that anymore. If I let myself be angry, I won't be able to be affectionate towards him, which is what started this thing to begin with. I'm literally sick trying to figure this all out. The thought of getting tough and sending him back to her is unbearably heart breaking to me. When I'm teary in front of him by the way, he just looks uncomfortable, but never comforts me. I even told him that's what I long for. He does walk up and give big hugs when things are going well. So confusing. I'll stop now. I just read back and see this is a series of random single thoughts, I'm a bit flustered now, sorry, I still hope for any guidance as I'm feeling so unclear. How do I get through this Christmas emotionally? Thanks for being here!!!


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    1. TEN HOURS LATER: I asked him to tell me all his grievances. Long story short, after a three hour sober, late night conversation, he isn't sure if he wants our marriage to continue or not. He can't get over me rejecting his advances over the years. That's it. He is angry with my affection/sexual 180 over the last six months (which I started before the affair but he claims he was already worn out by then) I kept quiet and listened to him and then tried once more to sell us working through it. It turns out, every time I'm affectionate now, or do something sexually that I didn't used to do, it reminds him of all the years I didn't do those things. It is looking like I can't win here. His prior affection after D day was just him trying. He isn't blaming my crying melt downs or the tracking but I think they are involved. Either way, it is not looking good and I am backing off but I think he just isn't interested in us anymore. I'm in worse shock now but at least my suspicions were correct that he isn't completely in love. He likes things VERY EASY. This isn't. I reminded him separating won't be easy but he has this vision of it being very cordial and him having our son half the time while he supports us all as before. Hmmmmm. I'm not there yet, still hoping he falls madly back in love with me! OMG I need to wake up, just slowly so I don't keel over, even thought I wish I would.

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    2. Anna, I've spent a lot of time over the last three months trying to figure out what love really is. But in my opinion, "falling in love" is a fallacy. It was my husband's excuse for his betrayal, and I don't buy it for a minute. "Falling in love" is infatuation, and it always fades. It is based on illusion and fades in the face of day to day reality. That's what I think, anyway. i've always believed that real love is deeper and grows from year-to-year, based on shared experiences, joys, and sorrows. Real love is not this magical feeling. Real love is work. It is commitment. It is give and take, accepting someone's faults, knowing them intimately, and wanting their happiness even when you're so mad at them you can't see straight. , Of course, like I said, in my own precarious position, I'm hardlty an expert. Just taking it day by day myself.
      But I said all that to say this: it doesn't seem likely that your husband is going to "fall in love" with you. As you said yourself, he is looking for the easy way, and there is no easy way here. You definitely seem to love him, but until you are both ready to put the past behind you and start building new memories, it can't work. And he does not seem ready. Only you can be the one to say how long you can put up with this ambiguity, but I think you should psychologically prepare yourself to move on, Take care of yourself. Be kind to yourself. Start planning for a life without him. Best case scenario, it will shake him up and he will come to his senses. But even if he doesn't, you will be able to prepare yourself, step-by-step, to build for yourself the kind of life you deserve.
      I am so sorry for your pain and torment. We all understand it so well. Hugs to you.

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    3. Thanks you from the bottom of my heart, and thanks for the hugs, I need them! I will take your advice and prepare. For me that means moving back up to the cold gray north where my family is, which I don't want to do but think I will NEED to do, so I won't just be loosing my husband but my home. I've been emotionally all over the map. Anger, thinking he is a clown, aching with love. He has withdrawn physical affection other than peck hello kisses. I found and saw a counselor. She was wonderful. I didn't realize how much I was blaming myself and after going over everything she had a way of explaining it is his own creation, to alleviate the guilt, like what Elle said but the back and forth really shined a light for me. I have a bad feeling he is starting to see OW again but she suggested I leave that alone till after Christmas since I don't know. She thinks his repulsion with tracking and the password on the phone is strange if he's not hiding anything as well. So on the last day before our trip he pulls out an old school ring to wear as a wedding ring, and finally sets up his STD test for tomorrow morning right before our flight. (Prepaid so I think he'll do it this time). Why? He isn't touching me now. What a jerk. He's being so kind though---- I feel a shift going on in myself and went to bed feeling like I will handle this fine and know I have a clear conscience. I think I can adjust myself eventually but am gut wrenched on what this will do to my son. This makes me angriest of all. What a selfish bastard to not try to make our marriage work when I'm giving him EVERYTHING he's ever asked for. So the counselor suggested I focus on Christmas and be polite with him. Maybe what you are saying about him 'falling back in love', is also some weird excuse to keep him from feeling guilty about screwing our son and drag me on enough to not divorce him so he can do his own thing. He asked for space and was so 'buddy' like in thanking me. He keeps turning his tracking off and will not give me the password to his phone. All bad. I don't like feeling the anger, I like the lighter approach the counselor brought out of me, She was rolling her eyes at some of the things I told her he said to me. I was feeling confident that all will be well when I went to bed but woke up now with full blown anxiety and despair. Thanks again.

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    4. Anna,
      Rebuilding a marriage after betrayal is incredibly hard even WITH a remorseful, committed husband. It's damn near impossible with a husband who still has his head up his ass. He doesn't get to make the rules. Sure, your marriage had problems. But he cheated on you. Instead of acknowledging your concerns about his drinking or lack of affection, he chose to cheat. So if he really wants to give your marriage the chance it needs, he should be falling over himself to make it up to you.
      Instead, he's playing games. Turning off the tracking device. Refusing to give you his password, "running errands", giving you some bullshit about not being in love. Love isn't something that "happens", it's something that you decide on. Especially when you're married. Especially when you have a child together. It takes work. He sounds like his definition of falling in love is high school. We all like things "easy" but as adults we realize that life isn't always "easy". But it's easier when our husbands aren't cheating on us.
      Anna, I think you need to give some thought to an exit plan. You may not need to use it, but if you do, I want you to be prepared and know exactly what you're entitled to. If this guy thinks divorce is "easy", he's in for a rude awakening. Even with amicable spouses, it's tough.

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  36. It's been 7 months since I found out about my husbands one night stand. When I found out he was very forthcoming with any answers I asked and was overall very remorseful. Since then he has been working on our relationship with spending more time with me. Even with all of these factors my intuition is still telling me something is off. My husband has been recently complaining of a health issue that is keeping him from having intercourse with me. That normally wouldn't bother me but around the time of the ONS he had a similar issue but would not want to go to the doctors. When I did take him to the doctors they would perform tests that come back negative. The same thing is happening again. Also about 2 months ago I found a photo in his phone in the "recently deleted" file where a young, attractive girl was hugging him from the side and he had his arm around her. When I asked him, he said that she is a coworker and the photo was from one of the fun days they have at his work. These fun days are not abnormal so I disregarded the photo. 2 days ago I found pornagraphic photos on his phone with a female that looked similar to the girl from the other photo (same hair color, body shape, etc.) but it wasn't the same girl because these photos were easy to find on the internet. One of my for thoughts is that he is cheating with this young girl. The other part of my anxiety is that when he had a ONS he told me he slept with a much older women. So I'm worried that maybe he lied about who he cheated with and the nature of the affair. I have no idea how to get proof of this or how to go about it at all.

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    1. Anonymous,
      I'm not much help with the proof part of this. I'm no tech sleuth. Maybe some others can offer up advice. But I do think your hunch is telling you that something isn't right.
      It sounds as if not much was resolved after he admitted his one-night stand. Who was it with? How did they meet? Do you have access to his electronics? Passwords, etc?
      I'm sorry...I'm not much help. But I would urge you to stay vigilant and talk further about what happened before.

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    2. If somethings are not right, then it isn't right. These guys lie and continue to lie even when we give them a second chance. My husband lied to me so many times after Dday not about the affair but the details, first it was 8 months, then 10 months then 2 years after I coughs him in his lies. Follow the money and see what is missing?

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  37. After everything I posted a couple of days ago about my struggle with healing and my illness, D-Day #2 came yesterday.

    He's been back in contact with the OW, the woman he told me he hated, for over a month. They've been using an old email address that I forgot about. And they've seen each other twice just this past weekend...once to hang out and once so he could fix something for her. She has no friends since she burned every bridge her entire life, so she "needs" him. They tell each other "I love you". He says it's not a romantic love on his part, but that they have a connection that he doesn't understand. He claims there is no sex. But he lies, so who knows. She wants him to leave me and make a commitment to her, that much he was honest about. He says that he tells her that it's never going to happen, that he loves me and his family.

    He can't explain any of it. He says there are no plans to have any kind of life with her. That he just wanted to help her because he's the only one she has. She has no family nor friends here (her family can't stand her anyway). She calls him her best friend, tells him how much she loves him and is willing to accept whatever place in his life she can get. Whatever he's getting out of it, he can't seem to explain. He loves her, apparently, but he says it's nothing like the love he has for me (his wife, the woman he lies to), it's a deep feeling of friendship that started when she adored him at the worst time of his life (during his most severe depression and feelings of being unloved). He says he doesn't want a life with her, doesn't want to "be" with her.

    He's asking me if I'll consider keeping him if he cuts off all contact. But we've been down that road before and look where it got me. His promises mean nothing. He won't stop telling me how much he loves me, how sorry he is, how he'll die a broken man. But I've heard all of this before.

    I wrote the other day that his affair had gone so badly that I knew he'd never cheat again. And here I am. Same OW. The same one who lied to him andanipulated him.

    After 25 years, I'm living with a stranger. I honestly don't recognize this man at all.

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    1. Oh Dana,
      I'm so sorry. This all sounds completely crazy.
      What were your boundaries around him having contact with her? Separation? Meet with a lawyer? Whatever they were, you need to follow through. Maybe some space is what you need to help you clear your head and figure out what's next.
      I wish things were turning out differently for you. I fear he's going to wake up too late and lose you.

      Delete
  38. Dana, I am so sorry for your pain. I know how devastated you must feel. I went through 4 Ddays myself, and by the end of it I felt totally alienated from my husband. Only in the last week, 2 1/2 months after the last Dday, have I finally started to feel a real connection to him again. He did feel like a stranger. Trust building is so scary and so precarious when we have been betrayed. And now you are back at square one. My friend, I am so, so sorry.
    Only you can decide what to do next. The best next step, as Elle would say. Take care of yourself, and make the decision in your own good time. You are dealing with so much right now; I feel for you! Please know that you are on my heart and in my prayers.

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  39. Friends, I just want to share that is has been a good week. My husband and I have been talking a lot, and for the first time since Sept. 1 I feel some of the emotional barriers starting to come down. Best of all, we have reserved a cottage in the mountains for two days in January. No kids, no chores, no work, just us. I know we have a long, long way to go, but for the first time I feel some hope.
    Hugs and good wishes to all of you; I can't imagine what I would do without you.

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    Replies
    1. That sounds like a lovely getaway! Enjoy...you so deserve it!

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    2. This is wonderful to hear! Nice to have some good things going on, there have been more downs lately it seems around here. Take care and thanks again for your input on my situation.

      Delete
    3. Hi Phoenix

      I am so happy that you all are in a better period. I hope you and your H keep finding your way back to each other. Merry Christmas!

      Becky.

      Delete
    4. That's so great Phoenix. Really really happy for you.

      Delete
  40. My h went back a few months after dday apparently fog hadnt lifted and his head wasnt out if his ass thats when i went ape shit and and demanded he better give a shit and show it about me or thats it. ..it all in or not i too thought we were making great strides that dday 2 hit me like a,tone of bricks after which his mouth poured out secrets events timelines like a spew of vomit that hurt bad but also let me grasp a better timeline and finally my obcessing. .. became much less. I know u feel like your world's crumbling ... it sucks and no excuse for his actions ... you are not alone dana.

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  41. Thanks for the support, once again.

    From reading all of the emails and talking to my h I think I have an idea of what bomb just went off in my life. He had no contact with her for about 8 months and then all hell broke loose in her life...she got a DUI, she was fired and she was arrested (the accusation was actually false...surprising considering the number of actual violations she's committed).

    She asked him for help and he felt sorry for her. And so it began. The lies, the sneaking around,the gas lighting. They weren't having sex, but they were trading I love you's and "my handsome man's" and "pretty lady's". The messages weren't romantic, per say, but they contained those flirtations....which just turned my stomach. He did tell me that the last time he saw her, she got angry that he wouldn't offer her anything more than friendship...that she told him she was in love with him wanted him to leave me. He told her that was never going to happen.

    He's begging and crying for another chance, saying he knew it was wrong, but, for him, it didn't feel like an affair. He says he realizes now that it was a form of emotional affair, regardless of his intent. Her neediness and adoration strokes his ego, and he can't seem to easily walk away from that without a kick in the teeth. He hates himself again. Cry me a river.

    He believes he's lost me and I'm ok with that for now. I don't know that I can make a decision right this minute, even though I've told him I can't see us being together. Between my illness and the holidays and the financial stuff, I am ill-prepared to do much of anything.he says he'll wait as long as it takes for me to tell him if there's anything he can do to win me back or to tell him to pack his shit.

    I'm assuming that I still love him...but I'm too numb to be sure of anything. And I can't imagine ever trusting him again.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dana,
      Give yourself as much time as you need. You're right -- it won't hurt that he thinks he screwed up one time too many. In the meantime, he might want to figure out why he's willing to risk so much for what amounts to little more than ego stroking. But that's his problem, not yours.

      Delete
  42. We seem to be in a bit of a strange place, not really doing well but also not really having a hard time either. We both seem to be feeling anxious and ill at ease. We want to be together and at the same time we both want to be alone. I was hoping that for Christmas we would both feel more relaxed and connected. I know expectations are not helpful, but I can't really not have any....

    Anyway, here's hoping that Christmas will pass by in a very neutral way to necessarily special or meaningful but also not too painful.

    My love and support to all
    Becky.

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    Replies
    1. Thinking of you, Becky. Hoping for peace for you this Christmas. Hugs!

      Delete
    2. Becky,
      It's a fairly normal stage, I think. That walking-on-eggshells place where everything is...okay. Not great. Not awful. And no-one is too sure what's next.
      Just take it all in. No expectations. No pressure. Just moment by moment.

      Delete
  43. Merry Christmas, Becky! I hope things are looking up for you, too. I know it's been really up-and-down for both of us lately. Hugs!!!

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  44. Sorry, Becky, I just saw your second post. I am praying for a Christmas of peace and emotional calm for you. I hope you have some rest from anxiety and strife, and are able to start the new year strengthened, with hope for the future.

    ReplyDelete
  45. It's been 2 years 9months. So why am I soooo angry still. Whenever something goes wrong I turn it round to his whore.
    He's so sorry, try's so hard says the right things. BUT I can't let it go. I can't move past what he's done. What she has. I have nothing no house no money. We don't have age on our side to start again.
    Everything's hard and I've lost my spirit and yet o know there's people much worse off than me. I know I should move my life on, just can't

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jane,
      Anger is generally a mask for hurt and fear so I'm suggesting you ask yourself what still hurts...or what is still frightening. I know you've been through so much so I suspect there's still a lot of resentment about where you are in your life right now. It's not where you thought you'd be.
      But you have a choice: You can spend more months/years being angry that life hasn't dealt you the hand you wanted, or you can figure out what hand you have and play it the best you can. Either way, it's your choice.
      Could a therapist help you move forward?

      Delete
  46. I wanted to say Merry Christmas to all my friends and how thankful I am for all your comments, advice, straight talk and hugs. I'm sorry for all of you in pain this year. As my sister said, it is only one day out of the year. I'm in a really good place this year. Re-making my own Christmas. it is unfamiliar territory for me to just "be", not running the show, not being in charge, not everything has to be perfect. I'm really relaxing and that alone is scary. I told my husband specifically, "I need you tell me, thank you for the second chance, I'm glad you are here with me etc... He shows it but I need him to say it, to help me get me through this Christmas. A little extra sugar in my coffee this holiday please. He is being super sweet and unexpectedly bought me this very sexy red sequine dress for Xmas eve. I couldn't ask for more in this moment. Think what do you need to get through this holiday? A hug that doesn't stop until you say so? Kiss me everyday unexpectedly? Pin me up against the wall and kiss me for a full minute? Tell me one sweet thing in the morning before we get up? Be specific so your cave man knows what to do that will help you. Un-whore the holiday. If you were strong enough to be loyal to a jerk then un-whoring may not be as hard as you think. Love to all and especially to Elle who I pray will receive a special blessing for each time she pours her heart out to help us. Gotta go I'm busy un-whoring.

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    Replies
    1. Un-whore the holiday. I think you've hit on the slogan that just might replace Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah on this site! Brilliant. Thanks Lynn. So glad your Christmas is the good kind of different this year.

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    2. I love that, Lynn! And here's to un-whoring the New Year too!

      Delete
  47. I just don't know how to wrap my head around the fact that I have a D-Day #2 after all we've been through in the past 10 months. I can't believe he let her back into our lives knowing what he knows about her. He knows how completely messed up she is, how dangerous she can be. They were good friends (at work, working closely together for over a year before anything happened) and, even though he hated her for a while once he realized how she had lied to and manipulated him for months after he ended the physical affair, he remembered their friendship and how she was there for him when he was suffering from severe depression and he wanted to do the same for her. It's crazy talk I know.

    He says that he felt sorry for her, that her life is such a mess (all of her own doing) and that he wanted to help her if he could. Apparently, he was encouraging her to move back to her previous home state, which is across the country. She had said long ago that she wanted to go back there eventually (she told me this as well last winter before I knew about their previous affair) and he thought that losing her job would be the catalyst. He also told her that she needed to find another man and stop focusing on him. Hard to do when you're telling a woman that you love her and being cutesy with her, regardless of your intent with those words. WTF?

    Yes, for him, this was another ego stroke, regardless of what he told himself. She adores him, acts like he's the best thing that's ever lived and piles on the doe eyed neediness along with constant compliments. In an email she told him tat he's her "best friend" and she is so grateful to him and doesn't care what she means to him because his friendship is enough (her words) and than 2 days later, she asked him if he would leave me and commit to HER and flipped out when he said that he'd already told her that was never going to happen. She literally has NO other friends because she's such a heinous bitch. Everyone she's ever worked with, befriended or been in a relationship with hates her guts. She's a sociopath. Even her family is afraid of her. One of her children won't speak to her and the other one keeps her at a safe distance. Her siblings run when they see her coming.

    But a part of him has always felt bad about the way he treated her in the end, even though it is what she deserved. She had sobbed to him that he was the only man who'd ever broken her heart and begged for his forgiveness and he treated her at the time with the callousness she had earned with all of her lies. White knight guilt is a gross thing.

    I just can't believe that he did this to me again. That he lied and cheated (even if he didn't consider it an affair...he knew it was wrong by virtue of having to lie about it, but, in his adled mind, while he felt horrible, it was a temporary situation and I would never have to know...she would be permanently gone soon...AGAIN knowing what it did to me the first time. He has no real explanations, he can't make any sense of it himself. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that. He seems to have no desire to see her or speak to her ever again, and has agreed to a no-contact email, and giving me carte blanche to choose the content, knowing that my plan is to end the marriage.

    I'm stuck riding with him in a car for 2 3-hour stints today as he is taking me to see a specialist, and I have no idea how I'm going to survive it. He's begging and pleading to at least let him take care of me, even if I'm ultimately kicking him out of my life. And I wish like hell I didn't have to let him for now. I hate that he's getting even that much from me, because it makes him some sad semblance of happy and I don't want him to have even that.




    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dana,
      I hope the day went better than you anticipated. If it helps, treat him like a hired nurse. "I need a glass of water." "Get my slippers." I can imagine your rage at having to deal with his insanity right when you need a good friend who's got your back. Is there a friend you can rely on right now? Someone who can support you emotionally and practically with everything else you've got going on? It might be time to let him stew for a bit while you figure out what you want going forward, both in terms of your own health and with your marriage. But take it a step at a time.
      In the meantime, is there also a professional you can see to help you process everything? You've got so much to take in right now.

      Delete
    2. I suppose the day could have gone worse! The appointment went pretty well...was actually somewhat encouraging, so there's that. I go back in a couple of weeks for more tests and I'll likely have a better grasp on my health at that point.

      Most of the ride there was spent with me railing at him and demanding explanations he doesn't seem capable of giving me. And then HE gets frustrated and snappish which then sets me on an even bigger warpath. He immediately apologizes, of course.

      All he can say is that he felt sorry for her, she had no one and they had once been friends. They both have a history of sexual abuse (hers was long term by her own father...his was by a neighbor and more brief) and I think that he sees that hers is what's led her to become the mentally unstable person that she is and he feels a sympathy for her that's very powerful. But, there's more to it than that and he needs to figure out just what it is. Obviously, the flirting and I love you's (which he swears were platonic on his part, but admits that it was not on hers and he knew that) went far beyond "help"...he says that it stroked his ego but also was designed to make her feel better. The ass.

      He maintains that he had no interest in a sexual or romantic relationship with her or in involving himself with her for more than the short term. And that their disagreement the other day when she asked him to commit to her was the breaking point. He knew she was "in love" with him, but he didn't think she expected that from him because he felt that he'd been clear that it wasn't going to happen...that they were just "friends". He claims that, by and large, despite all of the compliments she throws his way, she's difficult to get along with (she's a beast when she doesn't get her way...hence her lack of people in her life) and that he was trying to figure out how to once again extricate her from his life, but didn't want to hurt her any more than she's already been hurt. But, apparently, he lies, so who could say whether this is the truth or whether I give a crap if it is. It doesn't change the fact that he's betrayed me again.

      I'm working on finding a new therapist...I obviously need one to work through this mess my life has become. He's said that he needs to do the same, and I wholeheartedly agree.

      Now I just have to figure out if I'm interested in relationship counseling as well. If it do go in that direction, this time my immediate goal won't be reconciliation, but, rather, how to move forward (with or without him) in the least destructive way for ME.

      Delete
  48. To all my BWC sisters ... i wish u all a little sparkle this xmas and everyday forward. .. your amazing ... perfect just being you without all the balls in the air and above all stronger inside and out thru and thru more then you ever knew. Xo heres to a better year ... merry xmas and happy new year.

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    Replies
    1. And to you Wounded. Merry Christmas. Or, as Lynn puts it, Happy Un-Whored Holidays!

      Delete
  49. I haven't posted in a few weeks. Just reading helps me a lot. The H and I haven't had a lot going on. We are in this weird place where everything just feels off. Saturday had a mild heart attack. Thank God he is going to be fine. I did my wifly duties. Stayed with him at the hospital. Prayed and held his hand. Of course I don't want anything to happen to him but the whole time I'm thinking I don't even know this person. We still do not talk about it. He will answer any question I have if I ask him directly but I see the absolute terror in his face if I bring it up so I just don't usually. We just go along everyday pretending everything is fine when everything is far from fine.
    He was leaving for work again after Christmas and that is postponed for now. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. On one hand having him gone makes extremely nervous but on the other hand I was kind of looking forward to the space.
    Merry Christmas to all of you and thanks so much for being here for me.

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    Replies
    1. Rae,
      I'm sorry for your husband and for you. That must have been frightening.
      I would urge you to think hard about why you're letting him off the hook -- what are his feelings of terror at having you ask questions more important than your need to talk about this? Is this a pattern your marriage -- where you put your own feelings and needs behind his?
      I always urge women who want to rebuild their marriage to really take this opportunity to create a healthy relationship that has truly healed from the betrayal. Pretending things are fine when they most definitely are NOT fine is a recipe for misery. You've been through enough. He owes you the truth. As much as you want to hear. And if it makes his scared, then too damn bad. This is about your heartbreak and your healing. If he wants you to give him a second chance, then he needs to show you that he deserves it.

      Delete
  50. I'm the girl who has a song for everything. So let me share the one I'm singing tonight:

    "I'll be fine and dandy, Lord, it's like a
    Hard Candy Christmas,
    I'm barely gettin' through tomorrow,
    But still I won't let
    sorrow bring me way down."

    Dedicated to all my BWC sisters. Merry Christmas! May your hearts find peace and joy tomorrow.

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    Replies
    1. Blast from the past. Dolly Parton, right??

      Merry Christmas to you.

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    2. Phoenix, this song came on yesterday when I was preparing Christmas dinner. Not letting sorrow bring me way down.
      Hugs!

      Delete
    3. I've made it my ringtone for a little while!
      Hugs to you, Dandelion and Elle!

      Delete
  51. I'm sad and depressed. We moved into our new home the week before Christmas - that's stressful. My job is going well - and it's scary. My H is falling back into his old habits of pre-D Day. I don't know how to describe it.... he is distant, lies when I ask if there is anything he wants to talk about - "nothing" he says. Followed by a "You have nothing to worry about".
    Not much in the affection department and sex is infrequent and almost selfish on his part at times. He is not "trying" in my opinion. Sure, he still tells me he loves me and is glad I am still here....but he doesn't SHOW it. I tell him I need to hear his words with sincerity.
    My gut is telling me something is up. This distant, unaffectionate, broodingly quiet behavior has been going on since the beginning of November. But he says nothing is up. He tells me he has not spoken to OW. I think he is lying - I don't know that he is lying...but his past track record tells me he will do and say anything to save himself. My counselor asked me if I thought he would do this again after all of the fall out once I discovered. I honestly answered her with - "yes" I do. I believe he loved her that much ..... he stayed with this OW for 18 years. And to top it off - I found out three days ago that OW mom died at the beginning of November. I truly believe OW reached out to my H.....I have no proof - but that is what I believe...based upon H's current actions.

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    Replies
    1. 1998,
      I think our intuition is generally pretty good about these things. I guess the question is, what do you do now? Did you have boundaries around reconciliation -- ie. consequences if he violated the no contact, etc? If so, what were they? I think it's reasonable for you to simply say that you don't feel safe and implement whatever the consequences were. Maybe he sleeps on the couch. Maybe he needs to leave. But you can't live in this limbo. It will make you crazy.
      I'd be inclined to call him out on this. What is the point of stringing you along if he wants to be with someone else? What is the point of stringing HER along if he wants to rebuild his marriage. He's either in or his out. He doesn't get both.

      Delete
  52. Hello
    I been with my husband 7 years and have two children .
    I always knew he was cheating on me but I thought it stopped when we got married .
    But then 2 years after our son was born I found out he had an affair 2 weeks before I gave birth to my son.. He actually travelled with some girls and I was in another country so I didn't know ..

    Just last month I found out he was having an affair not physically but talking to her on the phone every night for 5-9 hours straight while I was asleep with the kids .
    He stays up at night for his gym and his trainer and stocks since we are not in the states !

    After I found out I was heartbroken but I didn't leave him instead I left for 4 days and when I came back I had such a sex drive that he thought I forgiven him .

    Just one month later we travelled and went out had an amazing time, but when I woke up I didn't find him next to me I checked our hotel apartment couldn't find him so I asked my nanny where my husband was she told me her bed:0 I was like why is he in your bed , she told me he came in with his tight underwear wanting to sleep with her but she ran to the bathroom locking it crying and he kept knocking .. But eventually fell asleep on her bed ..
    She even told me I'm not a woman like that and told me to be careful if he's like that.. Oh and not to mention she's 20 years older than me ..


    I was convinced it was over for me I was 100% convinced I told him to go back and that I wanted a divorce anyways instead of doing that we ended up having sex I know sick right ?

    I haven't even got over the girl he told to that he loved every day for 4 months on the phone and now I have to feel afraid that he will sleep with my nanny ..

    I'm stuck why can't I leave him ?

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    Replies
    1. Denise,
      This is an incredibly unhealthy relationship as you well know. He's made it clear all along that cheating is part of a relationship with him. You can't spend your life worrying about which woman is his next affair partner.
      I can't tell you what you can't leave him...but I would strongly urge you to get to a therapist and figure it out, You deserve better than this. Your children deserve better than this. But you need to believe you deserve better and then figure out how to get away from this man.

      Delete
  53. Dear Dana, I just wanted to reach out to you specifically because I had a D-Day 2 very similar to yours. My husband was remorseful and caring for 9 months and we were attempting to reconcile. He was saying all the right things and had been to counselling (not long enough but had worked out from his past where the affair came from.) Ten months after D-Day 1 (and a no contact email etc) I discovered that he had been in text and phone contact with her for a month. This is alongside telling me how he was devastated at what he had done to me and wanted to make things right. When I discovered the truth (she actually sent me a FB message) he lied to my face as to whether they had really been in contact. Like the Bible, he lied twice, then I asked him a third time. I said, I will take whatever you say now as the truth and he admitted it. He ended all contact once more. If it's of any help to you I will tell you what he told me. The first time he broke it off with her and realised he wanted his (family) life back, it was sudden. He felt he hadn't really worked through it properly. Like your husband, my husband's role with her was white knight, helping her in her troubles, feeling guilty then later for how he had hurt her. Just before the recontact he even admitted that he worried about her, wanted to know she was okay. She messaged him on a desktop app and he responded. Like your husband he told her it could not go anywhere, that he was trying to repair with me. Yet at the same time he kept in friendly and helpful contact and deceived me. It set us back hugely and nearly broke us. It is now 15 months since then and we are still repairing and having set backs but things are much better. The key thing that helped him was our MC asking 'what did she make you feel, what was good for you about the affair.' She made him feel needed and admired. She was filling that gap in him. Until he could recognise that and find ways to reach out to his family, other work colleagues and me to fill that gap, until he realised that what he craved would not magically come to him (as in the affair) but could be created and developed by him through his authentic and caring relationships with the people already in his life then he could not move on. This has been his key turning point. For everyone here, I found a book recommendation on another site of Steven Stosney's Living and Loving After Betrayal (he also has a helpful website.) It's key premise is that you can't reconcile until you heal yourself and tap into your strengths and core values. This goes for both the betrayer and betrayed. It's helped me more than any other book I must say. It goes through the hurts, resentments, PTSD, lack of identity and esteem. The trappings of an affair are superficial vapour masking rifts and gaps inside a person. The trauma of an affair creates in us a landscape of holes and gaps and landmines. We need to make the landscape our ourselves more steady and secure and have compassion for others in general, for the confusion in ourselves and our spouses but also assert what is important, how we want to treat others and to be treated. It is clear how strong this blog is because it is rooted in compassion, we need to have compassion for ourselves and discover the values by which we call our spouses to action and by which we decide whether what is being done is enough.

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    Replies
    1. Thank you so much, Fragments. I really needed to hear your story today. I'm in awe of your strength and in the fact that you've lived through this heartbreak (twice) and have done so much more than just survive.

      Today, sobbing, my H admitted that he hadn't let himself believe that I truly loved him for the last 10 months. While we'd shared 25 years together, and had so many wonderful times, our marriage was somewhat contentious. I've admitted here before that I am extremely critical and overly concerned with what others think due to some childhood issues that I've recently worked very hard to move on from. He bore the brunt of that for a very long time and suffered even more from it die to his own abusive past and the self esteem issues that came from it...but when I knew our marriage was falling apart (2 months before d-day, although his physical affair had been over for a few months at that point), I committed myself to making changes in the way I treated him. And, by and large, I think I was fairly successful. I learned to stop caring about what he was wearing, what kind of car he drove, etc., and put the focus on showing him that he was good enough, that he wasn't just the guy I got stuck with. And when the dust settled after learning of his affair, I continued with that commitment. However, there were many indicators that he didn't quite trust the new improved me. He enjoyed it, but didn't fully believe that it was "real". And, because of that, he kept himself at arms length to a degree. I could feel it, but just thought that time would be the ultimate healer. He often seemed to be waiting for the other shoe to drop, looking for indicators that I was growing tired of pretending and would go back to making him feel like he wasn't good enough. Again, his reaction to my criticism was heightened due to his own issues...so he did often see criticism where there was none. He'd see requests as indications hat he was failing.

      He also really stunk at MC...making me do all of the heavy lifting while he just kind of sat there like he was terrified of being included in the discussions. I know this came from 40 years of not dealing with his childhood trauma and feeling like now he really WAS the piece of shit he'd always worried he was. Now he really WAS worthless. So he shit down and went through the motions, hoping we'd forget he was there so we wouldn't ask him any hard questions. We quit going once we both decided that we were walking out in a worse state than when we walked in every single time. And he's just now talking responsibility for that. He says he's willing to go balls to the wall with therapy, to put in the hard work he avoided the last time.

      Right now, he hates himself, crying constantly, is having full blown anxiety attacks, and I have given him no hope for reconciliation this time around. I can't see how I could try again with his man, what kind of life it would be for me....but I may need to give it more thought. I'm just not going to let him know that.

      And did I mention that he'd gone off his meds right around the time this all started again? He'd had an issue at work because someone reported him for taking a narcotic (he had a prescription for Adderall that he took along with Prozac for severe depression with some social processing issues). He was leaving that job anyway for the job of his dreams and decided that he didn't want to risk being pigeonholed, so he went off both cold turkey. He was a wreck, to say the least. He started taking st john's wort instead, but it didn't work nearly as well. Not that I'm using that as an excuse...it's not...he still knew right from wrong and chose to be selfish and pathet

      I'm definitely going to look for that book, Fragments. I need all of the help I can get.

      Delete
    2. Fragments, your response to Dana touches on so many things that I found difficult to reconcile until I was a little bit down the path on this journey. My husband's affair filled a number of things he thought he was missing in our marriage. The OW stroked his ego, made herself available and fulfilled the desire for trashy sex that had been fueled by his porn use. None of the affairs are identical but they all share the common thread of two people who enter into a relationship built on lies and deceit. People who often find a way to convince themselves that they deserve to do what they are doing or maybe in the instance of an OW who are convinced they deserve no better . What allows them to participate in it is different for each person. Sometimes it's a big, ol' messy ball of issues. My husband has said he wanted out, but it became like an addiction. And like in your situation, he had a relapse after coming partially clean when I found the phone records. He told me it was an emotional affair and we spent nearly four months working to repair that damage before I found out it had been physical and had resumed 2 months prior when she messaged him on Facebook to complain about her father and her child being sick. On the final D-Day, he got slapped in the face with the reality. He was going to lose his marriage and his family. We started joint therapy the next day and that's when he really started to open up and take a hard look at himself. To the betrayed spouse, none of this makes sense when you are so paralyzed by hurt, fear and anger. At least for me it didn't. I continued to wonder where I had gone wrong, why hadn't I been enough. Eventually, it sank in that the affair had nothing to do with me and everything to do with the two of them and their issues. Letting that go was huge in my healing but it didn't come without me taking a look at some if my baggage too... No, I absolutely did nothing to cause the affair, but I needed to work on why I allowed myself to respond in some of the ways I did.
      None of it is easy. But I am hopeful.

      Delete
  54. Christmas was outwardly fine, inwardly grim. H and I both depressed. We want to trust each other, but neither of us really does. I hoped I was putting this behind me, but it's all around me today. Questions, doubts, and imaginary conversations are all I can hear in my head. The only relief I get is sleep and watching tv. I'm starting to resent OW again for causing so much pain and getting off scot-free, while my torment, seemingly, never ends. Sometimes all I want is to to be free of this marriage, of this mess. Then I think about the consequences of divorce - particularly for my kids - and I feel boxed in. It might be ok if we could get past this, but I think we're both traumatized and haunted, and possibly too damaged to help each other, even though we want to. God help us.

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    1. Oh, Phoenix... I'm so sorry you are feeling this way. It is so hard and it feels awful when you can't get a break from thinking about it. I can completely understand that feeling of resentment toward the OW. It has been an underlying issue for me. Kind of one of those things that is just bubbling under the surface and can boil over at times. I've spent a lot of time telling myself that she got away without any consequence, but when I truly look at the situation, I have to wonder how true that is. Yes, she succeeded in having an affair with my husband, but at what cost? Yes, they managed to hide it from me, but is that something to be proud of? Because now that the full, ugly truth is out, she has to face the fact that she compromised any morals and values she might have had for trashy parking lot sex and false compliments. And yeah, I got fooled, but only because I was committed and trusting. There's no shame in that. It's true that this is affair hurt me in a way I never thought was possible, but I never sacrificed my morals or values. And as another betrayed spouse who posted on a different blog so beautifully said.. I may have been hurt by this but I don't have to look in the mirror every day and see a whore staring back.
      I believe our husbands and their OWs face consequences. They may not be visible to us, but they are there.
      Remember how strong you are, Phoenix. You will get through this and you only need to know what your "next right step" is as Elle has said many times. Take care of yourself. Hugs!

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    2. Phoenix,
      I well remember that horrible feeling of being trapped. I felt like I desperately wanted to free of my marriage but couldn't imagine being the one to actually break up my kids' home. I felt damned if I did, damned if I didn't. I remember thinking that I basically had to sacrifice my happiness for theirs. It was horrible.
      But it didn't last. Feelings change. We think we'll feel a certain way forever but we don't. That works both ways, of course. Love can change for the worst, not just the better.
      The holidays also put a lot of pressure on us to feel grateful and at peace and blah blah blah. Which just makes it harder to acknowledge that, right now, life sucks.
      While you're waiting to get clear on whether you really want out or you just want the pain to stop, try and put an end to that storyline playing out in your head. When you start "dress rehearsing" tragedy and heartbreak, as Brené Brown puts it, be aware of it and remind yourself that you're telling yourself stories. They're not your right now. They're either in the past or potentially the future, neither of which is your right now. And they're often fiction. And yet we can get ourselves so worked up about stories that we're making up in our minds about what happened and who did what and when and on and on and round and round.
      Stop. Breathe. And then remind yourself that right now, you're okay. Not great. But alive. Breathing. And that's enough for now.

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    3. Damned if I do, damned if I don't - yes, Elle, that is exactly how I feel.
      Living in the present is good advice. I will try to apply it. Thank you, and hugs!!!

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    4. Dandelion, I can tell by your words that you do understand. Yes, it does "bubble beneath the surface", doesn't it? It becomes more manageable, but it is always there. I am learning to live with it.
      What you have said about consequences is also true. I have said it to myself, but I need to hear it again. I would not be her for a kingdom. At least I have my self-respect.
      Thank you for the hugs and the words of encouragement!

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  55. Phoenix, I'm so sorry that the holidays have proved so difficult. I really do think that they can be so fraught with nostalgia and melancholy that people who are hurting for any number of reasons can very easily feel overwhelmed and hopeless.

    Give yourself some time to get through them. Take that getaway with your H and use it to try to find that connection again.

    I'm sorry for not remembering, but are either of you in therapy (either together or as individuals)? That seems almost paramount in a situation like the one your describing...having someone who can guide you through the minefield you're both trying so hard to navigate.

    Best wishes to you, my fellow warrior. You WILL get through this.

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    1. Good point, Dana. When you're both feeling so traumatized, every interaction feels so loaded. It really can help to have a professional help you navigate that to find some safety with each other again.

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    2. Sorry for anyone having a stressful holiday season. We made it through ours such as it was and now day to day stress is back in the house. I seem to wear my feelings on my sleeves and just spout out in not nice ways when my feelings get pinched. Three weeks ago I crushed the tip of my right pointer finger and it has finally got feeling back but looks like the nail will fall off. It's been very painful and limited my housecleaning for a while. My OCD is handled by cleaning if I'm by myself. Then last night h crushed my heart telling me the meat I bought that morning was not good to cook the way I wanted and I blew a cork as it felt like him telling me once again I wasn't good at something again. Petty but he handled it much better than me and we bagged up the steak, continued in our way to the gym, I walked a 20 minute mile and we exchanged the steak with the store came home he cooked it while I made our salad and peace was restored. Now my question is how to get me to respond in a nice way to his 'constructive' comments on how to choose a steak. And that is how I perceive him. He sounds very condescending but the truth is I'm very sensitive for that is how my mother still talks to me at times. How do you get to the point that you can disagree and it not just blow up into majo ugly again?

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    3. Thank you, Dana. "Fellow warrior" - I like that!
      I am really happy the holidays are over. I just kept thinking about this time last year, and feeling that sense of lost innocence and disillusionment.
      H will not consider therapy. He is desperately unhappy but his mind is completely closed to the idea. He is convinced that there is no way he could ever reveal his feelings to anyone like that. Attempts to persuade him otherwise have been counterproductive.
      I saw a therapist once, but it didn't really help. I am playing with the idea of trying someone else, but it's so tough to open up and air all your dirty laundry to no purpose. Still, I might try again.
      Thank you again for your concern!

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  56. I feel a stuck place - I am exhausted, I know I need to relax and give up my concepts of control. But it is so hard and scary. My H and I have talked a lot and I know he knows my hurt and fears.... and I know his and I know I can't control him or his choices. Will he keep my heart safe, will he respect our marriage, will he be honest with me.... I really don't have a lot of confidence in these areas. This is so painful and scary because the OW is very present because of work BS they still see each other and communicate. He says there is nothing to fear and she is not a threat... But it is not that easy or straight forward in reality or in my heart.

    I am also so angry and resentful towards her - I don't want to hate her, but..... I do feel such genuine hate for her. She does not respect me or that my H is a married man. A few weeks ago I contacted her and asked her to please respect my marriage and understand that her only contact with my H must be strictly professional. Of course this was not successful in any way and only hurts me more. It hurts when you nicely ask for respect you deserve and the person blows you off. She is young only 21. Which is old enough to screw my husband but young enough to view the world in the selfish teenage way with no real experience and understanding.

    I want to breath - why is it so hard to breath? I want to let go and give my H the space and chance to do the right things without my hands around his neck. To try and navigate with out fear as the compass. Where will we end up.... A place of love and respect for each other. Or a place where I have to stand up with love and respect for myself.

    I feel so small and powerless. Last night I laid on the floor in my bathroom in the dark for 2 hours.

    My love and support to all. We are not alone.
    Becky.

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    1. Becky, do they work in the same place and, if so, is there any way to make a change? I know sometimes it's just not feasible. My H and his OW did and until she finally left, it was a constant issue for me. My only thought if they must continue to work together is to set clear guidelines with him and ask him to communicate any interaction with her to you. You may have already done this, but, if not, maybe it will help you. We set a drop dead date by which something had to change. If she didn't leave, he would have to. We were so fortunate in that she left before that date came.
      I'm sorry for you that this girl is not respecting the boundaries that you have asked her to, but she is very likely immature. As hard as it sounds, you'll have to place the trust in your H to keep the boundaries in place. As our therapist once told me, you have to let go of the control and give him the opportunity to do the right thing. What he chooses to do is beyond your control, but how you respond to what he chooses to do is within your control. It's hard to turn that trust over to someone who has abused it in the past, I know. I'm not trying to minimize the pain or the fear that come with this.
      Praying for some comfort for you. You are absolutely not alone.
      Hugs!

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    2. Thank you for your support Dandelion. There is not a way to make a work change now..... There may be less contact in the future, but not right now. We do have boundaries in place, but there still seems a lot of gray area stuff that ends up triggering me and causing fights and hurts.

      I really do want to relax into my fear and let go of control and be led by the truth of our love (which even in all this mess or love is very real and deep). But oh my God is it scary and hard!!

      Thank you again - love and support

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    3. Becky ... i spent alot of time on the bathroom floor in the earlier days ... crying in the car ... in the shower. .. check check and check. I dont cry everyday anymore even if i do still think about it .. crying is good for the soul.

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  57. Im having some difficulties this week feelings thoughts surfacing again... this too shall past and perhaps ill post more about my thoughts later when time permits. i had a thought today i just wanted to randomly share ... i thought .... perspective is a blessing even if the road to it was a battle. The scenic route right Elle! 2015 hasnt been my year for many reasons ... its not all a loss i will try to leave the bullshit in the rearview mirror but keep the lessons ... tools and new found wisdom in my pocket .... looking forward to starting a new year. Peace be with you BWC warriors ....i chant that to myself too.

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  58. Phoenix I truly feel your pain and can relate. I feel so empty and lonely. Even with h right next to me. I know that divorce is hard but I wonder if just wiping it all away would be easier than struggling the way that I do. I have my first therapy session in the morning and I am extremely nervous. I am terrified that it isn't going to help.

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    1. Rae, I hope the therapy session went well!!! I am considering it myself but am also afraid....

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  59. I too thought about divorce as "wiping it away". But I realized, even if I did divorce him, the pain would still be there. It wouldn't magically make it go away. I'd still have to live with the fact that the man I loved betrayed me. Maybe if getting divorced would have made me stop loving him, that might have worked. But I knew it wouldn't. Even in all of this I never stopped loving him. Even when part of me hated him.

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  60. Terrible, painful, scary day!!! My H is leaving today so we can have some space from each other. We are hurting each other too much - we are exhausted!!! He is going about 250 miles to another state and will stay with a friend.

    I feel so numb and afraid- what if we just went over the cliff and we don't know it. What if he doesn't come home? As of now there is no return date in mind.

    How did this become my life? What is happening? How did things get so out of control?

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  61. I know you are right Gee. Getting divorced doesn't help anything. The problem is that either way I don't get the life that I was promised. Leave or stay...both options SUCK! I don't know what has happened the past few days but I am so much worse. I feel helpless and hopeless and overwhelmed and just lost.

    I want him to be sorry...and not just sorry that he got caught but sorry for all the damage he has caused. We still don't talk about it. I had my 1st therapy session today. I really hope it helps because I don't know where else to go from here.

    Becky, I am so sorry. I wish I had advice or comforting words to offer. Sadly, all I can do is feel your pain and pray that it gets better.

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    1. Rae, I feel your pain. That is just what I've been thinking all week. If we divorce, we will be unhappy. If we stay together, we will be unhappy. Either way, we have a lot of trauma, and unhappiness, and depression to work through. I guess that's why I've been leaving the decision-making up to him lately. I am so ambivalent.
      I resolved this week to be strong and to try to find what joy I could over the next several weeks and months. I'm working on that. Hugs to you, sweetie!

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  62. Ten months since D-day. Still together and he's continued to do all the things he needs to do to reassure me and all that; however I am still so very broken. I can't get that fucking whore out of my head. There are 100s of things every waking minute that remind me. I hate her so fucking bad. I hate her with everything in me. My mind is on a hate-loop. I'm going to lose my mind.

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    1. Grieviously Injured -
      I feel your pain. I am almost 6 months since D-day. I hate the OW sometimes, so much I can't take it. But then that turns to hate and anger towards my H. No one MADE my H or yours be with and fuck the OW. NO ONE - it was his CHOICE.
      My H says the words "I'm sorry", and "i'm still here for you" and "I'm not leaving" "I love you" "please let me take care of you".... BUT do the actions match? Do your H's actions really match the words? I mean, do they think if they just say the right words - that will make everything better or that we can actually forget?
      I haven' posted a lot on here lately. I am angry .... maybe that's why. BROKEN - that is a good word choice. Because we are BROKEN. But we can't live that way - we can't. I hope you are seeing a counselor who can help you deal with your feelings. Sometimes I wish I could go every day and just talk with mine.
      Sometimes I think the easy way out would be to just leave my H. But all the crap would just follow me....nothing would get better. So running is not the answer.
      My H made the comment that he wished I had never found out....because this has totally gutted me. I told him as bad as all this shit is, I could not imagine living in the marriage we had at that time - forever. NOPE - this is the best, worst thing that has happened. It is making me deal with a lot of things I have never dealt with - and I need to whether we ultimately stay together or not. My H hopefully, will try and listen to his counselor and work HARDER on his shit - because he has a lot of baggage to deal with whether he will admit it or not.
      Please hang in there - I think all these feelings just cycle. Try to live in the moment... it's so hard, but we're better off in "the moment".

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  63. Becky, I am hurting for you and praying for you, You are such a good, kind, caring person. I hate that you are going through this!
    If you are like me, it is a catch-22: it hurts to have him near, and it hurts to have him gone.
    And having the OW still present in your lives is a constant thorn, keeping the pain fresh. Honey, I am so sorry.
    What is it about the bathroom floor, anyway? I spent some time there myself recently. It is hard and cold and uncomfortable, and offers nothing except relative privacy and a copious amount of toilet paper for nose- blowing. I guess that's how we end up there.
    You've got days without him ahead. I've got 3 days coming up where it will JUST be him and me. I just can't decide if it's a good idea or not. I guess you and I will both see where we are next week....
    Pain is just a way of life right now, isn't it? We are strong, and we are coping, but it is such a long, painful journey. I don't feel much like a Phoenix right now, but that is what I will be in the end. So will you.
    Please keep in touch. I feel such a kinship with you. I wish I could give you a real-life hug. But know that you are on my mind.

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    1. Phoenix - I wish you a good trip with your H. Try and put the hard things on simmer and build up some good will between the 2 of you.

      Also, I really encourage you to see a counselor. I know it is scary, but more than worth it.

      Sending you best wishes and hugs
      Becky.

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  64. Happy New Year sisters. May we all find well being and peace in 2016.

    I also wanted share a resource. Tara Brach is a psychologist and meditation teacher and her website has a lot of helpful resources. I listened to talk on anger today, which was rather insightful.

    Once again, all the best in 2016.
    Becky.

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  65. We are in a cottage in a small mountain town. The idea was a private, healing weekend. Instead, it looks like we'll be hammering out the details of a separation, possibly divorce. No anger, no fighting, we were very kind to each other and didn't even raise our voices...but he has clearly lost hope. I know he cares deeply about me, but he can't take the pain and the guilt, the distance, the trust issues, the bitterness.
    He can't see hope for the future. He may rethink things later, but I'm afraid it may be too late then. I can't play the yo-yo game.
    Me, I felt a strong sense of relief at first. No more lying, no more fear of betrayal. A clean break, a friendship. Freedom from paranoia and resentment, release from the roller coaster. Then I got that ball of pain in my stomach again, and I've been dealing with it all night and all morning. I've done some crying. I'm already mourning our marriage, our lost future,. But mostly I am dreading the effect on our kids.
    We will see what today brings.

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    1. Oh Phoenix,
      I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. It's trading in one brand of heartbreak for another.
      I hope your husband can see his way clear of the guilt and trust issues. But there's no question -- rebuilding a marriage takes hard work and a willingness to really push through that incredible discomfort. If he can't or won't, then you don't really have much choice but to move forward without him.
      And given your ability to discuss this calmly and rationally and with mutual respect will certainly help your kids through this too. It will hurt, of course, but as long as they have permission to feel the pain and work through it but also feel free to love both parents as much as ever, they'll be fine.
      Hang in there Phoenix. Keep us posted.

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  66. This is my first post. Not sure if this is the right way to do it.
    Two years ago, I discovered that my husband had a secret life.
    He accidentally sent me a message meant for another woman. I replied, "Umm," pushed send and went with him to dinner with another couple.
    When we got home, he sent me an email. He said simply, you don't know the person. Don't make more of this than there is. When I asked why he wrote instead of talking to me, he had no answer.
    Then one evening he left his computer unlocked, I read his mail and followed my hunch about whom the message was meant for.
    What I found took my breath away but I kept the information to myself and became a detective. I found that he’d written and told her of his error, said they'd have to be much more careful but that I suspected nothing. I then read all the messages I could between them.
    Because I’d invaded his privacy by reading his mail and was so hurt and confused, I was afraid to confront him.
    When I finally did, he said, “How dare you read my mail”! He refused to talk about it, denied that it meant anything. I said I wasn't going to debate "wrongs".
    I lost 30 pounds over the course of the next 18 months. He only admitted what he had to admit when confronted with evidence, so I became a detective. Every time I thought I’d understood, I learned more.
    Early on he’d promised to end all the relationships. Said he didn’t need them. Said they weren’t sexual. Said he was ashamed.
    Because he was not forthcoming, I became a lunatic, really. I had to know and since the only way to know was to snoop, I snooped.
    I followed him. I read his mail religiously. I went to the home of one of the women to ask her to stop communicating with him when he was telling her he had to stop. I printed out emails and brought them to another woman who lied and said they'd only met 5 times over the course of 15 years. I assigned nicknames to phone numbers and correlated them with various events in our lives and the email messages I was reading. I was nuts.

    I asked to see the messages in which he explained that the relationships had to end. He refused, so I read them for myself. He told one woman that I'm jealous or envious of her and her accomplishments and have always felt that way about her and other women. Said I was neurotic but maybe I’d come to my senses.
    Begged her not to tell her husband. When I confronted him about what I’d read, he said
    “Those are just words.” “It’s play acting.” HE IS A WRITER! A PUBLISHED AUTHOR!! Just words?? Play acting by throwing your wife under the bus?
    The issue was never that he had women friends but the long-standing, secretive nature of those friendships. The lying, the betrayal, the feeling that I was living with someone I didn’t know.
    We went for one marriage counseling session. To him, the therapist was a jerk. He never worked on why he needed these secret relationships, claimed he didn't really need them.
    Now, two years down the road he is sporadically depressed and hostile. I know it's because he never worked out why he needed the secrets and the accompanying intrigue and is mourning the loss.
    His November birthday and Christmas brought no fawning messages, presents and secret meetings.
    For Christmas, he gave me a cheap ridiculous present and is being mean. I'm telling him I feel like I’ve got PTSD. We celebrated 30 years of marriage in October. I love him but I'm full of rage, not just at him but at myself for not seeing what was before me all those years. I have forgiven him but will never forget.
    He is very accomplished, many awards, adored by these women and others AND I was one of those who adored him, blinded by his narcissism and my own low self-esteem.
    I've been rambling but I am in such pain right now I can't see straight.
    I feel stuck; I feel this will never end. I'm better. My boundaries are clearer; I'm finding me after losing myself to him and my children but, oh, the pain.

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    1. Oh the pain, indeed. Lynn, you are suffering from PTSD. It's not at all uncommon after betrayal. The world feels unsafe. We don't know who to trust. Everything you're feeling is "normal" under the circumstances.
      But you're right. It's long past time to draw some clear boundaries. Your anger is undoubtedly about what he's doing but also undoubtedly at yourself for allowing it. You know he's cheating on you. You know his behaviour of you is disrespectful, dishonest and incredibly unkind. It's on you to begin treating yourself with respect and kindness, which starts with refusing to tolerate his behaviour.
      If you want to attempt to rebuild a marriage with him, I would urge you to draw your very clear line in the sand. He comes clean about everything. He seeks help either individually or as a couple, or both. I would also visit a lawyer and get clear on what a separation agreement would entail. Brace yourself for pushback. It sounds as if this has become a lifestyle for him and he'll be angry at you for pulling his fantasy into the open. But stand firm. You deserve better. You have been a faithful wife for 30 years. You deserve respect and decency. You deserve a marriage based on honesty and commitment.
      Lynn, you know all this. The pain will not last. We all know it hurts like hell. But, as Churchill famously said, when you're going through hell, keep going.

      Delete
    2. In editing my comment above, I probably didn't make it clear that he and I made an agreement and with one exception I'm assuming he is no longer cheating.
      We've worked hard. I've worked harder with the support of my psychiatrist, my work, and tennis.
      He promised to do whatever I wanted him to do to mend our relationship but felt we didn't need a therapist--In this eyes, he's smarter than all of them anyway. In his view, we could do it ourselves.
      His refusal to get to the bottom of the need and his willingness to live without the secrets and those connections are the problem now. He hasn't replaced that with anything. How could he if he doesn't want to look squarely at what was driving him?
      If I thought he wasn't keeping our agreement, I'd have to leave.
      We've come a long way from D-Day. It's the waves, the triggers, the reminders that get me. His depression and lashing out makes it crystal clear to me that he wants to do what he used to do but knows he can't.
      Our relationship is more authentic than it ever was. Not perfection but my busting him forced him to deal with me and us in a way he never did before.
      Thank you so much for this site and your devotion to it. I cannot tell you how helpful it is. I desperately need just want the club provides.

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  67. Hi ladies. I am 22 months out from my D-day. I've been lurking on this site for a long time. The kindness and support here has been amazing and has helped me tremendously even though I haven't shared my story until now. I can feel all the hurt on the site and wanted to share my story that things can and do get better. It's true what the other survivors say, it just takes time and effort on both parties.
    My H's OW was a sales rep for a company that his did business with. A few client dinners, with mutual attraction in the air and you can guess the rest. I found out by seeing a text come through when his phone was on the kitchen counter.
    I went crazy. CRAZY. Called her, she hung up after realizing it wasn't him. I then proceeded to fill up her entire voicemail box with message after message about what I thought of her. I got her email from her phone. I blew that up as well with some nasty messages containing disgusting words I didn't even know that I knew! I raged at him. Tried to kick him out, told him he'd never see our children, etc... Looking back, I'm not proud of my initial reactions, although I do think they were justified.
    I learned it was a PA. Been going on for 6+ months at the point I found out. She lived 4 hours away from us, thankfully. I don't know that I could have or could bear the chance of running into her.
    He had no hidden addictions. The reason behind the affair boiled down to his freaking ego. This woman made him feel desired, attractive, manly, a sexual God (YES, I AM ROLLING MY EYES!), etc... I've had to accept it in my mind that he was craving the feeling of being wanted. Doesn't excuse the PA, but it is a human thing to crave that. I did some soul searching and had to reassess what our marriage had come to. I honestly couldn't remember the last nice thing I had said to him. I acted like sex was a complete and total bother and obligation. We were basically roommates; roommates that didn’t even seem to particularly like each other.
    I want to say therapy was key to our recovery. Get yourself into any that you can. We couldn't afford to go long-term, unfortunately, but we really did learn some tools in how to speak to each other with the sessions we had. Not to say we didn’t have blow outs, but there was an effort by both of us to be kinder before things escalated into madness. No matter how horrible things were, every night as we got into bed we both reaffirmed to each other that we were committed to moving forward. Although, some nights, it was just lip service! But we said it every single night.
    An affair is inexcusable. But when I came to terms with the cause, it did help us become stronger together. I do not blame myself (thanks to this site!), but I do now see things I did that had him feeling unwanted. This gave me the chance to change and show him how I really felt about him. He fed off the change in me and did a complete 180 himself. Now there are little silly love notes, texts for no reason - all these little things we do to show we care and it truly does make all the difference to us now. The PA isn't and never will be forgotten by me, but I can now say it is forgiven. What a weight to be lifted.

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  68. ANONYMOUS, PART 2: As far as the OW, I know many of us get obsessed with her. I did too. It truly wasn't until I let her go that I could start to even slowly move forward with him. I realized with almost a bolt of lightning one day in the third month after D-day that I was blaming her MORE THAN HIM. I was letting HIM off the hook because I was so focused on her. How could I blame her more than or even as much as HIM? She was a stranger to me. HE was the one who stood in front of friends, family and God and vowed to be true to me. HE was the one who fathered my children. HE was the one who used to whisper sweet promises to me about how HE'D never hurt me, etc... Maybe some will disagree, but I wanted to share that it helped me in my healing to let her go. I couldn't let her control my mind any longer. I had to take back that power from her. Trust me, I hold her responsible to an extent and I'm not going to be inviting her to my Bunco team or anything!!! But, focusing on what I determined to be the real problem - HIM - was so helpful to me. Carrying hate, hurt and anger towards one person is enough. Carrying it against two was truly drowning me. She never responded to any of my communications (if you classify my screaming incoherently with every other word needing to beeped out as communications!) so we never had any nasty confrontation. She didn't contact us, didn't stalk us, nothing. She went underground. I am thankful to her for that now. I don’t know how I would have reacted if she had and I know some of you have some truly horrendous things to deal with when it comes to the OW in your situations. Oh, but I will say he is no longer “allowed” to do client dinners by himself. His business partner has taken on the bulk of that task, or else both of them must go together if it’s absolutely necessary that my husband must attend. That may change, but it’s a compromise that we made for now and it’s been working.
    The fights still happen, but they are more infrequent. The OW is truly a distant memory in my mind. The good times outweigh the bad. Finally!
    Hang in there ladies. There are going to be fights. There are going to be very ugly things found out about the affair. Horrible things will be said by both of you. It’s true - we didn't deserve any of this that has happened to us. But, unfortunately, it did happen. Try to learn from it, it's all we can do. Big hugs to you all and hopes for a truly happy year coming your way. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, no matter what route you take. Life goes on, make sure you take an active role in living it! We are strong women and we define ourselves. We aren’t defined by what has happened to us. Bless you all and keep up your tremendous support for each other.

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    1. Anonymous,
      This is SUCH a great post. Thank-you for this. I'd love to repost it as a blog post for part of a new series I'm doing in which I'm asking those who are further along in their healing to write about how they got there. Would you give me permission to share this? I think it could help so many women.

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  69. Re: paranoia, hypervigilance, obsession, snooping, following, spying, checking email/cell phone/hotel parking lots, etc. - welcome to the sisterhood. We have all been there. They weren't our finest moments, but honey, we feel you. We did what we had to do.
    We also understand the rage, the grief, and the incredible pain. I know how badly you must be hurting. It sounds like you have been taken for granted, belittled, and disregarded in a major way. You are a good, loving person. You deserve so much better. Good for you for setting boundaries and taking steps out of the mire of deceit and depression. Value yourself - you are worth it. Treat yourself gently and take it one step at a time. I wish you strength and hope and peace, and I send you hugs. Do what is right for you, Lynn.

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    1. "Do what is right for you." We should all have those words written on our bathroom mirror to see each morning as we get ready to face the world. Thanks Phoenix for reaching out to another in the midst of your own agony. You are a true BWC warrior-sister. I bow to you.

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    2. That means so much to me, Elle. Thank you.

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    3. Thank you so much. Phoenix. We're living among these women. In the case of one of them, while I thought we only met regularly as couples, the two of them were meeting and exchanging messages before and after our frequent dinners and celebrations.
      In my detective phase, I assigned nicknames to each woman's number. A couple of days ago, I saw several texts from one of them.
      So here I am back again, snooping. Read the seductive text messages and invitations from her. His responses were terse and he refused to meet her. But how do I know this is absolutely true? Why didn't he tell me about the contact? Do I mention it?
      I am a total and complete mess. Keep losing my center. One thing happens and trust disappears. Thanks for responding. Wish I'd known about this site in the beginning.

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  70. My husband is self-destructing. I ache for him, but I am braced to shield my kids from the fallout as much as possible. To the spiritually inclined among you, prayers are greatly appreciated.

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    1. Prayers absolutely. It's awful to watch someone we care about self-destruct but at this point your loyalty must be to yourself and your children. He's a grown up.

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    2. Oh how i recall my H panic ... overwhelmed self in the earlier days he felt like running away ...like running away would make it hurt less or make it dissappear. .. it wont and he never did wind up leaving ... he,still has days don't we all ... im sorry u are going thru this and know you are not alone. Elle once told me once you hit rock bottem know where to go but up ... my h fell back into the ow a few months after dday ... i found out and went ape shit ... dagger to the heart again ... only after did we start making progress .. he needed that to see it wasnt what he thought it was ... his rock bottom and nothing you do is going to help him till he helps himself ... he sid this. Yep hes gotta look in the mirror. ..then decide if hes in for the hard work or out. I know so hard ... i want to say we didnt start turning cornor until 4mo+ ans of course after he,spewed a shit ton of more secrets lies and timeline that took my breath away but also lessened my obcessing some trying to create my own conclusions storylines etc u know the drill. Stay strong focus on you and your babies ... look for actions or sit idle for away till the dust settles and things become clearer to you ... so so hard i know. Good thing mamas are unbreakable even if tye world around us feels like its crumbling. Xo

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    3. Dearest Phoenix, though I'm new to the site and haven't learned your full story, I'm praying for you. So sorry.
      I'm amazed and grateful that in the midst of your own pain, you reached out to me in mine.

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    4. Phoenix, you have my prayers for comfort and strength.

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  71. I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what to do with an OW who won't stop contacting us. My husband and I are totally unified now and have no more secrets so that is going better then I could have imagined a year ago. We've changed phone numbers blocked her on everything and she still manages to find us and sneak in messages of hate masked as "I'm just trying to help" I contacted her husband because I would want to know if my husband were doing that to her... but he sides with her "She's only trying to help" it's bizarre, I'd be shooting fire if I were him and my wife were still chasing down her affair. Anyway now he is also blocked from everything but I'm worried she will amp it up and start name smearing all over the internet or contact our jobs/family/friends. It's so nerve racking, she is starting to feel like a stalker so I'm keeping my own record, when do we involve the police? I fear she could get crazy enough to get dangerous? Thinking about moving. Hoping if we continue to ignore it will eventually die out, it's been one year maybe she just needs more time to move on? Any advice or commiseration would be welcome, I hate this mess of insanity he invited into our life.

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    1. Rose,
      She sounds unstable. When it's clear you don't want her "help" and she won't stop? That's not normal. When her husband supports her in this? That's crazy.
      You might want to call the police and just ask them what to do. Explain the situation (they've heard it all before!) and see what your options are. Then you can make a decision.
      But she should have moved on a long time ago. When the standard approaches aren't working (blocking, insisting on no contact, etc.), then you need to move to the next level.
      Keep us posted about how you proceed.

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  72. Sisters, please help! I need some opinions and insight.
    I am 3 months in. I have had clarity, have developed compassion, accepted his behavior as an addiction stemming from valid issues, he was doing everything 'right', our therapist thinks he was on the right track, etc.
    But. On New Year's Day, I busted him in a lie. One that he would not admit to even when I figuratively shoved his nose in the evidence. The scary thing to me was it wasn't about sex. It was about a scheduling issue at work (he was on vacation all week, but he was scheduled New Year's Eve night because another manager had already put in for that night) He knew about the scheduling the week before but 'got anxiety' because he knew I would be annoyed (yes, I would have been, but I am the type to flip out for 3 minutes then move beyond the issue because I had a chance to vent). So he texts me the morning that the asst manager called him in to work 'because another manager called in' (he is one of 4 managers for a large grocery store) and he had to work it because 'she wouldn't have called him unless she was desperate'. So our plans are ruined, but ok, whatever.
    Then I see his text to the manager who supposedly called him in 'because she was desperate'. On the 23rd he confirmed with her he was working New Year's Eve. So I say this to him. He launches into this big explanation that by the 25th he had it straightened out, she hadn't realized he was on vacation this week, etc. So I say: ok, where is her number or the store number on your incoming call log on the morning of the 31st? When she called you 'so desperate' for you to cover? He tried to insult my intelligence by saying that the cell carrier must have screwed up the call log.Then he finally admitted he lied, he was worried I would be pissed that he agreed to work that day and didn't want to tell me the week before. He said he got anxiety over disappointing me, and felt trapped by that morning, and 'had to tell me something'.
    Boy, that worked out great for him. I crossed the line finally and fairly beat the sh*it out of him. (I am not a physical person, but wow, I came up swinging.) All I thought of was D-day. Same lying.
    In therapy, I have learned that lying goes with the fantasy, the addiction, the compartmentalization. I accept he is an addict and see that he is working to control that. My fear, is that the addiction will channel itself to other areas in our lives, and that I will NOT accept or live with. I understand sometimes they can relapse. What I am terrified of is that he has brought this compulsive lying into a mundane aspect of our life, his work schedule. And it wasn't like he did it in a knee-jerk way, then realized he f*cked up, and came clean when confronted. He kept lying and trying to defend the lie.
    I told him during our recovery in the last 3 months, I can deal with the addiction, but I WILL NOT TOLERATE any lying. My exact words were: 'If I find out you have so much as opened an eBay account without telling me, I consider that a lie'. And I told him I would leave him if he lied.
    After I finished hitting him I told him he had a week to find somewhere to live and to get out. I told him I refuse to be collateral damage for his demons any longer. I told him it's godd*mn time he sees some consequence for his actions. He made an 'emergency' therapy appointment on his own for tomorrow to discuss what he did with his therapist. He is going to talk to his therapist about anti-anxiety meds because he feels anxiety triggers this behavior, and he was anxious about disappointing me, blah blah blah.
    How do I know if I am doing the right thing? Am I right in seeing major red flags in this lying, denial, avoidance behavior still happening? Do I say: 'Ok, 1 relapse, and now he knows better?'. When the holy hell is enough ENOUGH?!?!?
    I desperately need some insight, if anyone can offer it.
    Thank you

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    1. Suzannah,
      "Enough" is when you're ready to walk away. Nobody can decide that but you.
      The lying is part of the addiction/fantasy. But many of these men have lied as a lifestyle for most of their lives. In my husband's case, it was easier to lie than to deal with his parents' disapproval of his choices -- from courses at university to friends to jobs, etc. So he learned very early in life that he could avoid disapproval (and the subsequent feelings of shame, guilt, anxiety) by lying. Even now, I'll catch him. He'll tell a friend he's not feeling well when the truth is that he doesn't feel like going out. He'll say the traffic was bad when in fact he left work later than he said he would. I call him out every single time. They're "harmless" but they contribute to a dishonest life.
      I suspect your husband learned similar behaviours. That it's far easier to lie than deal with someone's disappointment. But part of his recovery needs to be learning to deal with uncomfortable feelings (and by "uncomfortable" for some of these guys the feelings are excruciating): disappointment, anxiety, guilt, shame, sadness, loneliness, grief, etc. etc. He needs to learn that he can feel those feelings and survive. That he's a grown up who can experience negative feelings and get past them. AND he needs to learn that he's only creating MORE grief for himself by lying and depriving himself of the deep intimacy that comes with a truly authentic relationship in which we allow each other our negative feelings, not just our positive ones.
      It's up to you, of course, whether you want to stick with him through his recovery. There are no guarantees. He has to want this more than anything else. In my husband's case, even if I had left, he was committed to his recovery because he was sick and tired of being disgusted with himself.
      You've got options. Separation. Divorce. Biding your time to see what changes he makes. None of this is easy, Suzannah. But I admire your strength and your conviction. You're going to be okay.

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    2. Elle, my husband lies compulsively for the same reasons, about harmless things. I hated it but dealt with it for a long time because he is a good man in so many ways and he loves me. But now that he's lied about the EA, every lie puts more distance between us. I think he wants to stop, but it is so deeply ingrained a behavior that I don't know if he can. Suzannah, I wish I had some good advice, but all I can offer is empathy and commiseration. I am stuck where you are. I love him. I believe in marriage. But where do I draw the line?
      Hugs!!!

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    3. Phoenix,
      I suspect a lot of these guys (and women!) learned long ago that lying made life easier...until it made life harder. But old habits die hard. It really is a matter of learning a new way to live, and creating expectations within ourselves. After my husband's double life was blown open, I no longer let myself tell "white lies". I'd always prided myself on honesty but realized that I often lied instead of being forthright with someone. I see no harm in the "your new haircut looks great" even if I don't like it but I do see harm in using lies as a way of avoiding confrontation, conflict, etc. So even the untrue "I can't help out because I have a dentist appointment that day" isn't as healthy a way of dealing with a request than "I'm sorry. I can't help you." As my therapist so often reminded me, "No" is a complete sentence.

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  73. Rose ... right there w u girlfriend. .. almost 8 mo out ... shes still popping up. Sighhhh i sent a cease and desist letter ... only now she calls with an app that blocks her number. We changed all numbers recently. .. blocked on anything we could. ... we shall see. Go away ow! Hopefully this time w my H and i both telling her united ...leave us the fuck alone and changing numbers shell get it ... but i wont hold my breath. Apart of ne wants to go find her,again ... but really what good does it do ... better to try and ignore i guess ... but yes annoying! If i had more concrete records i would be against a restraining order but they just dont hand those out .. a mess indeed.

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    1. Wounded,
      Please don't contact her. It will just open the floodgates again. Stand firm in your insistence that she is not to contact you. Honestly, these people. What do they think they'll gain? It's truly pathological.

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    2. Im not even if i do think all the things id tell her!!! It simply wouldn't matter. You cant fix crazy or make irrational people see rationally ... no contact .... i know ...really i do. Any attention good or bad only feeds them.

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