Feeling Stuck: Part 9 (FULL: PLEASE POST IN PART 10)

Share your story here of getting stuck en route to healing:

193 comments:

  1. Phoenix im replying to your post in stuck part 8. My dear friend i feel ur pain. ... my h fell back into a quickie and a few weeks of talking again a few months after dday ...it was devastating and their affair long term. It made me question everything .... This sucks and i hate he went back but i see now that was the rock bottem he needed to finally snap out of this fantasyland bullshit! It was also when i demanded ME ME ME you better give a shit and focus on me! The ow true colors also shined through .... im not justifing any of it .. pure bullshit but now i see him working towards whats important on the other hand if he were not working with me id find it even harder to manage and commit You need to do what you feel is right or give yourself time time to process, decide, move forward ... whatever you decide. .. you will be ok .... your girls will be ok ... mama are unbreakable even if it feels we are crumbling inside ....

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    1. Wounded
      Your words touched me this morning regarding your h having to hit rock bottom in order to climb back up and out of the affair. When my h chose to take her out of town for one more try to end the affair. He slept with her that night and spent the entire time driving back telling her why the affair had to end. By that time all my h was having to do to keep her silence was a few lunch dates no sex but a few tender kisses. Text messages to keep her silence. Then his ultimate betrayal of her when he went to her apartment to connect the Internet and she again attempted to kiss and reconnect the love she thought he had for her but was denying himself true love because he felt so much 'obligation' to the marriage that he had previously convinced her was over.
      That was when he began to refuse to return her calls texts or meet up requests! Two weeks later she contacted me and he felt nothing but relief! This was when I was crumbling down the emotional roller coaster as the contact continued.
      Now that no contact has been established we are beginning to find our way . My h thought we could go back to the way we were with him having full freedom to return to the fun he had with his guy time. That's when I began to challenge his selfish choices because we were just beginning to put us back together! Trying to find the right balance as Elle spoke of on the post. Thanks for helping me see a new light of what was once a very painful memory!

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    2. Its funny too alot of what my h says he got in deeper. Longer then he wanted trying to figure a way out of this mess .keep hew quiet.. noway out only through it right ....so he finally told me. Its always a reach for me to see that as its out of his character to not be in control how he let this ow munipulations and threats lead him is so out there h said after time he simply kept it going out of fear of me finding out ... so hard to imagine. ... fathom .... but it seems alot of men feel that way .... your words all my h had to do to keep her quiet ........ true thats prob not how it started out but seems to end huh. Another thing my h said once i knew and he went back for that quickie ..... the illusion of it all wore off ... its not all that ... different sure .... but he also realized he had it all at home. Always has but shut down to some pressures and changes at home we discussed in detail ... dumb really dumb .... but once you hit bottem nowhere to go but up.

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  2. Phoenix. Good move. For your husband to fuck up is one thing. But repeated lies and a 2nd phone is just too much. I fell apart at the point that your H was going to be working with the Ow. No. Not. Cool. And now this? It's one thing for your husbsnd to try to make things right. It's another that he falls off the wagon. It's a whole 'nother deal that he has a throw down phone and repeated contact. Saying you want a separation is a GOOD thing. It might snap him into reality. And you can decide then to believe him or not, again. Is the ow married? Does her husband know? God, I feel for you Phoenix. Rise girl. Rise!

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  3. I forgot to choose "notify" when I posted, so it took me a day to see these posts. And boy, did I need them. Y'all brought tears to my eyes and some joy to a heart that has been really heavy today. Thank you!!!
    I've been haunted by the picture of them, the love poem, etc. that I found on the phone. I wish the OW WOULD act out. So far she's sugary sweet. Yes, she is married, to a violent husband who has sued for divorce and wants to rearrange my H's face. She has had a hard life, he says. I would feel sorry for her if she weren't lying, sneaking around with a married man, and trying to destroy my life. And of course she's 18 years younger.
    You may have a point about hitting rock-bottom, Wounded. I meant what I said about the separation. He's shattered my heart too many times, and I want off the ride. I wasn't trying to scare him straight. But it seemed to have that effect. Still, I just don't know. I don't know if he can be strong enough to cut her off. I don't know if I can ever trust him, even if he tries. I'm tired of constantly checking his phone and vehicle; I don't like what they've made me into. And I don't know how I'm ever going to trust him out of town again, particularly in HER town. I don't want to wonder and worry, and I don't want my heart shredded again. For our family, for our kids, and because I do still care about him, I want to try. But I just don't know how this this time will be different.
    Wounded, Steam, Snowblind, your words of support have given me courage. I've highlighted and cut my hair, and now I'm headed back home to talk to H again. I pray Gid will guide me to the right decision. I know He guided me to you. Love y'all!

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    1. So much of our angst comes from getting ahead of ourselves. As my wise friend is forever reminding me, all we need to do is take the "next right step". What's healthy for you right now? What do you need right now? What makes sense for you and is consistent with your value system and goals right now? That's the step to take. The rest will unfold. He'll either smarten up or he won't. You'll either decide to rebuild a marriage with him or you'll decide not to. The next right step, Phoenix. That's it. Not easy, I know. But far easier than trying to predict what's going to happen weeks/months/years down the road.

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    2. I'll try to focus on that. Thank you. I guess the next right step right now is getting through that appointment with the lawyer tomorrow. And dealing with the loneliness I'm feeling right now.

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  4. CF,
    Here's what I wrote yesterday to a woman on the Obsessing about the Other Woman post:
    "You stop by recognizing that the behaviour is hurting you. And then you create a plan. You put an elastic band around your wrist and give it a good snap each time you think of her. You put a stop sign on your computer any time you consider searching her. You give yourself a 10 second or 30 second pause any time you plan on seeking her out to provide the space to remember that it is harmful to you. You think of her like a tumour that needs to be cut out of your marriage or it will infect everything. You call a friend who will remind you of every reason why it's damaging to think of her. You remove yourself from any chance to search -- you go for a walk without your phone, you unplug the computer, whatever.
    And then you do these things over and over again until the urge eventually stops. In the meantime, you stay away from alcohol/drugs or anything that reduces your ability to make smart choices.
    You're right. This is keeping you stuck in pain. And it is YOU who is choosing to self-harm this way."
    Same advice goes for you. You're hurting yourself by hanging on to this woman. Cut her out. You can do this.

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  5. I am not exactly in a place to intervene, but I can certainly identify. I think about that infernal person all the time. I've composed letters to her, never sent. I've had 1000 imaginary conversations. Half the time I want to hurt her, and the other half of the time I am desperate to bring her to an understanding of how much she has hurt me. My anger and bitterness toward her is so huge, and I want her to KNOW. I want her to understand what horrible thing she has done, what a selfish person she is.
    Isn't it a shame that you and I can't slap each other across the face and yell "snap out of it!"?
    They are not worth it, Cactus Flower. They are not worth it. We need to distract ourselves with other things. We need to snap rubber bands or imagine stop signs, like Elle says. We will get past this eventually. (((Hugs)))

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  6. I made the mistake of watching the movie "Hope Springs" last night. Holy moly. I thought it was going to be a comedy, after all, it's starring Steve Carell. It was a drama. *spoiler alert* It was a beautifully done movie about a couple who has drifted apart and can't find their way back together. It felt like the story of my life. A husband who is there, but emotionally unavailable, a wife who is not technically alone, but so lonely that it's killing her, her making all the effort in the marriage, and her finally thinking about leaving because she would feel less alone to be single than to be a with a man who doesn't love her the way she loves him.

    That was my marriage from the beginning until D-day. There were brief glimpses of happiness every now and then (just enough to keep me hanging on), but mostly there was none of the true intimacy I craved. There's a poignant scene near the end when Kay packs a suitcase and is sitting in her bedroom, looking around and crying because she doesn't really want to leave, but can't fathom staying anymore. I bawled like a baby, because that was how I felt for years, especially following d-day. And yet it was healing for me. I didn't realize there was still another layer of pain, but it feels good to have let it out.

    Today is a new day (my birthday), and I feel so much better. That's in a large part thanks to this site. Last year I was still suicidal on my birthday. This year I feel hope for the future. No matter what happens in my marriage, I finally believe that I am enough. I love my husband, but I no longer need him to complete me. I am enough on my own. I wish it hadn't taken my husband cheating on me to finally learn that lesson, but at least I learned it. I feel like I have the ability to actually love him properly now that I don't need him in the unhealthy way I did before.

    Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts. I have no where else I could share this, as very few people in my life know what happened. I hope all you ladies can find some peace today. XO

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    1. Happy Birthday, Gee. So glad it's a happier one this year. You're a strong woman, and I hope you have a wonderful day.

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    2. Gee
      Thank you for sharing this with us! I can relate to so much of what you say about being lonely even when you are with your h. I we all have had periods of time when those same feelings were a part of the daily life struggles we all face as we are busy with career and child rearing! I have many more memories of good times with my h during those years than the feelings of loneliness. When he was busy with work it seemed as if my business was running smoothly and raising our children was a wonderful chapter of our life together. When I read posts like yours it gives me strength and the power to make it through the day! I hope you also are finding peace!

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    3. Happy birthday Gee! And what cause for celebration. You've come a long way. Anyone able to go through what you have and come out with genuine compassion and self-love is on the right path. Glad you're lighting the way for those who are coming behind you.

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  7. Oh my gosh my husband is such a HORRIBLE liar I ALWAYS knew something was up. for my awful year before D-day i swore it had to be his drinking--yes that was the problem, it had to be, right?. I could see all the lies (finding empty bottles in his car! and in recycling) after berating him for drinking so much and he would still deny deny deny. It was not until i started taking PICTURES of the bottles that he would tell me I was right. I was so focused on the drinking that another woman never entered my mind.
    This was my problem in the days and months post D-day. I did not believe one thing he said because he had lied (badly and i saw right through him) for years about the alcohol. It was only when confronted with actual visual proof that he would admit I was right. Really infuriating. Didn't stop him either. D-day I got immediate proof to two physical affairs, contacts, blow jobs, whatever-- and to this day it is only these two he has steadfastly copped to. He danced on the edge many many MANY other times. I was sickeningly compelled to find every little thing and hit him over the head with it. I was so SICK of the gas lighting over the drinking that i was willing and eager to beat the hell out him with anything and everything I found. and I did. It really was quite a huge waste of time looking back. sometimes i would snoop 4-12 hours a day. yeah, it was that bad. Eventually I tapered off, and now, if i do it more than 5 minutes once a month I feel i have wasted my time. The only good thing is he stopped drinking on D-day. Oh, and no more affairs. I would know. He's a horrible liar.

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  8. I knew alot from the get go ... my H had some trickle truth and after he went back the second time and i found out he dumped a big bucket of detail that allowed me to connect the dots and make a flowing picture ... i know alot and some details even too much but i may never know it all ... i can only decide and hopful i know enough to get through this. I can tell you at least for me. ... the obcessing and assuming was drowning me ... really! I felt trapped by the unknowns and gut feelings of i know there is more or hes lying or his version seems partial? He felt by holding some things back he was protecting me from more pain when he was actually holding me, us back. Also in telling me it broke down walls and allowed communication to start. Elle says when your at the bottem know where to go but up and when you reach the point of vulnerability and exposure it is a bond many relationship don't reach. It was hard and hurt like hell but looking back what i needed that woukd have help me if i got right at start big dose of wtf vs alot of little ones .. be careful though alot of things i asked some i wish i hadn't you cant unknow what you hear. But id rather be slapped with the truth then kissed with a lie. Not just friends the book talks about walls and windows i found it a good read and got a better understanding of what it was in the end its not about ow it could have been anyone and while we each could have done different things along tge way it may or may not have made a difference its something my H has to work on himself while we continue to work on us. Hard and now good days at 5 mo we are climbing uphill together.

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  9. On Tiesday night I felt strong and free. I felt like I could handle anything. Then yesterday afternoon I began to slide downhill. H and I had a long talk on the phone. He tells me he doesn't want a divorce, but I can tell that he really does. He says things like "I always want to have an equal say in the children's lives" and "I will always love you, I will never be mean to you". Last night the grief and anger was too much. I cried and cried, I texted him and he called me. I cried and cursed him and her, used obscenities; I was hysterical. He heard me out and apologized. He told me I could call him anytime. But of course, we all know what a liar he is. This morning I found a message on his phone telling her how much he loves her. It is really over. My husband and best friend of 17 years has betrayed me completely. He has destroyed his family for the sake of a 27-year-old skank who is also a heartless liar and cheater. And he wants to be my friend.
    I know that soon I will feel some hope again. I know I can make a life without him-probably a better one too. But right now I feel so broken, and my heart aches for my poor oblivious daughters.
    We will see the lawyer today.

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    1. I'm so sorry Phoenix. I've been following your story with a heavy heart. You deserve so much better than to be treated like this.

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  10. Phoenix, I wanted to cry for you, but I have no tears left. I can no longer cry at sad films, for myself or anyone else. My soft inside is nil of compassion.
    Be strong.
    I'm from the UK and they had the last of a very good series about a Dr Foster who's husband had an affair with a young 23 year old and then got pregnant. Very Itesting story line. Felt her pain and understood her unusual behaviour
    Don't be hard on yourself, love you as a caring person you are. Something good comes from something bad. I truly beleave that. You will come out the other end and will always be able to look yourself in the mirror. Xx

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  11. I am in a state of shock. Six hours before we see the lawyer, and H just called me. He sounds different, certain. He tells me that he has finally, once and for all, broken it off with her. He says that he told her he loves his wife and doesn't want to hurt me anymore. He says that she immediately quit her job at his company, so working together will not be a concern anymore. He says he loves me and he is committed to making it work. Dear God, after all this, I am so afraid to believe. I told him I would call him back again and talk to him at noon. He is saying everything I have wanted to hear, the ambivalence is gone. But it is coming at a time when I was firmly convinced that it was over. I do love this man, but I have so much pain in my heart. God, please give me courage.

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    1. You've GOT the courage, Phoenix. Listen to that small still voice in you -- the one that doesn't waver. What do YOU want right now. More time? A legal agreement that gives you the house if he changes his mind or you find out he's lying? A separation? YOU get to decide what the next right step is for you. And there's nothing wrong with just giving yourself the space and time to figure out what that next right step might be.
      We're all in your corner, Phoenix. Ready to watch you rise.

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  12. My h told me on dday. .... we went through some hang up calls and random emails text from ow for a few weeks then quiet ..... had about 2 1/2 mo no contact then he fell back for a quickie and talked for a couple weeks ow was acting desparate lonely and asked to meet for closure since it ended abruptly once i found out. i found out about the contact again and all hell broke loose .... 3mo on .... more emails and hang up calls only now the ow colors were bleeding through the fantasy bullshit and i demanded give a shit about ME, us or lose it all. We became a united front ..... the fog was lifting. ... emotional hell yeah for him and i .... he dumped a bunch more detail ..... finally ow had nothing holding him in fear .... i knew all or most of anything she could threaten to tell me. The gig up ... the spell broken? And now hes engaged to working on us. Talk about it ... be honesty .... hurt and try to heal.

    PHOENIX ... if i read 1mo in as correct .... so raw ... so new .... i feel for you ..... 1 mo in i was on auto dragging myself out of bed not eating not sleeping ... a zombie of a human shell managing at best and just trying to get through the day. Now 5 mo out alot diffrent but really only 2+ mo out since h and ow had sex and spoke. Its a long road that we are forced to walk at a snails pace .... walk dont run .... but also ... listen to your gut .... be on alert .... do what you feel right. What was right for some is not right for all ... and when children are involved emotions run even higher as now its multiple hearts involved ....child are resilient .... but i get it .... i really do. get some sunshine on your face. Think about it or take action. YOU HAVE CONTROL TO DO WHAT YOU WANT .... we all know now very little is gauranteed. Very little is controllable. ... you cant control others actions only your own ..... i hope you start seeing action from your husband or whatever it is you need to guide you. I can actually talk about the affair without crying now i may still get blotching but i can normally stay calm ... to rebuild is work a shit ton of work ... this betrayal one of the hardest things ive ever dealt with but i stand by im wounded not broken. Your choice .... i know your newer here i recall an older post ... MY HEARTBREAK ... MY RULES. Take the lead to move in the direction you want or allow yourself the time you need to figure it out. At 1 mo i was the wounded girl sobbing on the bathroom floor ... crying for me. My kids my life and even fir my husband. Marginally better but i can say im in a different mindset from 1 mo out. We are on your team no matter what route you choose ... stat is hard ... leaving is hard its really up to you to decide what is best for you. I just wanted to chime in ... i was so alone before i found this blog. Take bits and pieces if us all to apply as you see fit. No judging here.

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  13. Phoenix
    Your story hurts my heart and I also know how difficult it is to believe the new truth of their love! Elle is right though you will know the right thing for you when it feels right in your heart. It also helps if you know your financial standing. I was blessed from the beginning with knowledge that I would be able half of all our assets based on state divorce laws and just knowing that I never had issues with that fear. I did fear his love was not genuine because he still desired more time away from me to be with his friends. I'm sure once you meet a lawyer regarding any questions you have, that alone will give you more confidence in yourself! I'm sending prayers for strength to you and hugs to let you know that no matter which way your heart leads you we are all here for you!

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  14. I am so incredibly glad that I found this blog. You are all strong, beautiful, amazing women. I am in awe of how you have overcome difficulties, helped each other, and reached out to make me one of your own so quickly. My heart is full. I save your posts to read when I need the encouragement.
    The lawyer (a friend from church) gave me preliminary paperwork, advice, and prayer. H is back to waffling, so I'm going to start on the paperwork. He does maintain that he has blocked OW's number is and sticking to NC, and I think he means it, at least for now. I'm ready to rest a bit and see what the weekend brings - hopefully some resolution. Whatever happens, I will stay strong and get by with a little help from my (BWC) friends! Love y'all!

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  15. Every time I think I should know exactly what comes next, I tell myself, "Not today." You have plenty of time, Phoenix. Your marriage will declare itself soon enough. If there is even a minute of hope or happiness, try to enjoy it. H will either get it together, or you'll be ready to move on. You win either way. Hugs to all.

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  16. When you love deeply a man that has betrayed you so badly, do you ever know when it feels right in your heart ! Or is it that my barrier is still up. Afraid of being hurt again ? I don't know the right thing for me. once we have moved house next week, should I build a life for myself. Is it wrong that since DDay we have been inseparable! Only going out with other couples occasionally. We broke away with our long term friends because the men where away with him when he met her and that wives did not support me.
    Lost my house and money, found out my husbands 7 month affair, and realised the people I thought cared didn't !!
    Had Sex last night and today feel used. Is that normal?
    Is it right I should forget and move forward. He begs me every day to stop. Talking, asking questions. But when you get don't know, can't remember I'm not satisfied.
    When I found out he said they had sex once and told me other things. Then he says none of that was true and he told me it because it was what I wanted to hear. Think he means that was what I expected to hear. And I would then shut up.
    Mentally I'm in a mess. Feel I'm going crazy. Can't work and only function part of he day. The rest of the time I'm in bed.
    I'm not even half the person I was
    Bad day today :( X

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    1. BWC ladies with more time/experience behind them can give you better guidance, but you have my thoughts and prayers. Some days you can't beat the bad thoughts, and you just have to ride them out. It hurts. But I don't believe you are half the person - you are different person. You are a wounded, healing person. You are a survivor. Give yourself time. (((Hugs!)))

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  17. I am s mess today. Made an idiot out of myself last night trying to catch H at something he wasn't doing, and this morning I am s nervous, paranoid basket case. I am supposed to be the calm, strong, hopeful one, waiting for him to shape up or ship out. Instead, I am clingy, emotional, nervous, and absolutely sure that something is going to go wrong. I have zero trust and security. Zero. I'm drinking more often than I should. And I was doing so well for most of yesterday. I feel broken and raw. And I keep letting people down, because it is hard to care about anything but this. Also, I've discovered that my insurance won't pay for the counselor of my choice.
    I've gotten some peace from meditating on the verse: "Be still and know that I am God." Between that and venting, maybe I can pull myself together.

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    1. Phoenix,
      Today is a new day. This isn't going to be tidy and you're going to have moments where the crazy train rolls in. Be gentle with yourself. I threw a television set off a table. I smashed a very expensive watch. I threw a hot pizza at my husband's face. I was a mess. Many of us were. But you let it go, make apologies when necessary (such as if you've injured someone or jeopardized their safety), and breathe. You are broken and raw. Tell anyone that you feel you're "letting down" that right now, you're struggling with some issues and you simply can't be there in your usual capacity. If it's your kids, tell them that sometimes adults have problems that seem really really huge and that you're doing your best but some days your best isn't as good as other days. Model self-care to them. Show them, by example, that we don't have to be all things to all people. Ask for their help -- filling a bathtub for you, going for a walk with you, crying through a movie with you.
      Phoenix, I promise you that you will get through this. "Be still" indeed. Let the pain wash over you. It won't swallow you. Trust that.

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  18. Phoenix
    I struggled with the same feelings you describe! I love him so much but some days love was pushed out of my mind and the anger hurt all came rushing out! I would have a few good weeks and then some trigger or the other sparked the feelings of the very first day after I learned about the affair. During most of the early months my h was traveling every other week to the west coast. When he came home on Friday night I would struggle to keep my cool and not break out the screaming idiot I was becoming. Then I found this blog and it has helped me put my feelings back where they belong by giving justification that those raging feelings are normal. I began to feel the anger and pain and slowly let go of it one day at a time! The one thing that has made a big difference was my h was able to give me a true time line of the affair and explain why she said the things she held as their truth. Now the hard part is finding our way through to a better us! Not always easy every day but we are trying! My hope for you is that you put yourself first and get to a place in your own heart that feels right. I did as you trying to find proof he was not being honest with me. For the first six months he was not always as she was still texting him and he didn't want to cause me more pain. That in a way made more pain! The more I read here and understood that he too was hurting because of the choices he made and the depth of how hurt I was settled into his heart! His ow made me think he cared more for her feelings than mine. I was that broken mess you describe! I don't remember when I began to feel better but I know it was gradually a little at a time and not every day at the beginning. Time and him changing his behavior has been the turning point for us! Hugs to you and just know tomorrow will be better!

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  19. Tomorrow will mark 3 months since DDay. Lots of marriage counseling and individual counseling - and I don't go to the dark side as often.... maybe I just don't get so lost when I get there. Either way, I am trying to use some of what I am learning in my individual counseling to deal with my sadness that make those crappy "mind movies" that never seem to have a good ending. But just being out, driving by hotels where I know they had many "lunches" etc... Hell am I ever going to be able to stay at ANY hotel they didn't leave their mark??! Then my stomach hurts and I get depressed all over again. I think back to the times my kids were in elementary school and H was in full affair motion .... damn him. H told me yesterday as we were just talking about "stuff" that he actually broke up with OW 3 times .... for about 4-5 months at a time. His comment back to me was "I don't want you to think when 4 months hits that I will go back". Honestly, that isn't what I was thinking, but thanks for brining that up. OW will do what ever "dance" they danced. OW will call so innocently and insist on speaking with my H about business, and if H is doing what he tells me he will do, he will delegate to a colleague and then let me know OW reached out. But who knows - H is a liar. It's all he has known for 18 years. What a F^*#ing ASS.
    I told H last night that the past 18 years have been shit as far as I was concerned. Anything good that happened is now shit because of him and OW. That all our holidays, birthdays and anniversaries don't mean a damn thing....because he was checked out. H was hurt when I said this, but I don't care. It's true - so true. H says we have plenty of good memories.... really?? Then name some and make sure it included ME and not that skank OW...trash. He now admits OW wanted him to leave me and our two kids. H says he always made it clear he would never leave me, the kids and all our families...amazing. This was one of his affair "boundaries" - for the love of god. H starts individual counseling this next week. That was one requirement for me to stay - he needs to get help. Because anyone who can lead to completely separate lives is SICK.

    On a good note - I got a job... a good job. This gives me options and power. Which I desperately needed. H is afraid that I will leave him - that is not my plan. But H needs to be afraid. H starts counseling next week - which was something I required in order for me to stay....I hope H gets the help he needs - because who leads a completely separate life for 18 years .... and doesn't have issues- seriously.

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  20. Dear 1998,
    So good to hear from you. You sound like you are getting it together, so proud of your strength. Keeping moving forward, you will figure this out. Getting a good job celebrate your Independence Day. Way to go! You are an inspiration. He is the nut job not you and he is seeing you. Best revenge is what you do for yourself.

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    1. Hi Lynn -
      So I post that and last night, late of course, we talked about my sadness and pain .... as yesterday marked 3 months to the day. It didn't go well of course. He is ashamed of himself and doesn't like himself right now. But in talking about my feelings - which he is NOT good at letting me do - he finally, I mean FINALLY admitted he loved her and cared for her. For God's sake! All those days and weeks when all he could say is "It's been so long" or "I just don't know why" or any other crappy excuse - he said it. I was so ANGRY. Angry that he lied, angry that he denied that and more. He is sharing more and more, but only tid bits of parts of what should be the whole truth. I keep explaining that if he had only trusted me to tell me all this crap at the beginning I could at least have started to deal and heal. He told me he was afraid I would leave him. He is afraid I will leave today or tomorrow when he goes out of town. Well, guess what? He is just going to have to trust me this time - I mean look, I am still here right? I think the mere fact that I have stayed in this damn small apartment with two big dogs and no job (until last week) says a whole lot. He kept pressuring me to say that I would commit to stay forever. WHAT?? I told him I can't do that - that it is one day at a time.... I don't think I have ever taken that motto seriously in my whole life until now. It's so damn hard - but ONE DAY AT A TIME is all I have to give.
      Setbacks.... this is a setback. H cannot deal with it. A setback in his opinion means that any progress we have made is now nil. It's just a step back. Honestly, it's been up and down since the day I found out... So this morning when H left for work he came in and told me he was leaving and NOT to stay in bed all day....and to call when I get up. No "I Love You", no kiss goodbye - nothing. Sadly, this is H's passive aggressive asshole way of getting back at me....when I do call him and ask why this morning was any different than any other - H says "Oh, well you were still kind of asleep".... wtf - games... and he thinks I am an idiot and wouldn't notice or maybe that I would and just not say anything. Whatever. I am not going to let that rule my whole damn day. I told him how that made me feel and communicating this is what we are supposed to be working on - whether he truly acknowledges it or not.
      Interesting, H tells me that he hates the OW. He has never come out and said he hates himself (not to me anyway). He is angry at OW because they were supposed to be friends...I guess maybe super best friends. And friends don't do what she did to him. I asked him what he meant by that - and he said that it was all about sex at first (um so for how many years was that??), and then he told her they could only be friends. But that damn sex just kept getting in the way.... OK - I just don't get it. I am really serious. I have asked H again if OW threatened to speak to his colleagues at his office, or tell me or something that would make him so afraid of just ending the relationship. While H had admitted that he loved and cared for OW - couldn't that just be it? That he couldn't tell OW goodbye, that he was finally having to make a decision to stay or go - and that decision was made on July 11th when I found out. Who knows - but he has told me enough to finally make me understand that he stayed with the OW because he loved and cared for her. Oh, but he for sure didn't want me to think that he didn't love me.... H always loved me and cared for me. But the sad thing is - we were only 9 years in to our 27 year marriage. At that point H admits he checked out. He was "into" his new relationship. So as long as I just kept raising the two kids, working my full time job, handle all the household, take care of kid issues, deal with teenage crappy years, high school years, college years that all would be well. And I did it.

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    2. PART II -
      But I didn't handle all the pain and loneliness well at all. I handled it the only way I knew how - which is all part of my damn baggage, I was angry and resentful, felt worthless, unloved, and unlovable. I convinced myself I deserved to be treated this way - I mean after all, if my H didn't love me why would he treat me like this? Stupid huh? But I know this now and am working through my painful crap.... Honestly, I didn't know that I was competing with anyone for my H. But H told me he "picked me".

      Lynn - I will just never understand how anyone could do this to another person they say they love. I just can't. I don't know if all the damn therapy in the world will help me understand what the hell he was thinking every time he was "doing" the OW and sharing intimate details of our life and our kids ... everything.
      UGH - I have got to calm my mind and get myself together and start my day. I will not let my H's behavior dictate my day.... not today.

      Thanks for replying Lynn, it's always good to hear your kind words - they came on a perfect day...when I need them most.

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    3. 1998,
      I don't understand it either. My husband cheated for the first 12 years of our marriage. It's bizarre to me. All I know is that he was incredibly broken -- he used this fantasy life as a way to essentially self-medicate. You might gain insight as you move forward but I'm not sure we'll ever really understand how our husbands could behave in that way because it's contrary to our own way of moving in the world.
      It sounds as if your husband needs therapy, given his way of dealing (not dealing) with your feelings. If feelings make him uncomfortable, then it's easier to check out than figure out a way to heal, at least for some people. And of course, you're resentful for the years you spent carrying the whole load while he was checked out.
      If you're choosing to stay, at least for today, it's time to re-establish your own boundaries. You have a great new job. That's empowering. And while your husband gets help re. therapy, you can focus on you -- what you need to move forward. Nothing about healing from infidelity is easy. But it's easier when we tend to our own hearts and make ourselves a priority.

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    4. Lynn -
      I am afraid. Flat out afraid that while I am "all in" with trying to work on our marriage and sharing my feelings (even when he doesn't want to hear it) that he isn't going to be able to give me what I need emotionally. He simply cannot share one personal feeling with me - and I am not talking about anything that has to do with the OW or their relationship. Damn it, I am so tired of putting myself out there and not feeling that he can say more than "I care for you", I love you", "I love you more" and the best of all "I love you bunches and bunches". He cannot say why he loves me - he cannot say why he cares about me. We both continue to go to marriage counseling once a week now, my individual twice weekly and he went for his first individual session yesterday. He is going to a female therapist - because I am sure he thinks he can charm the pants off her - and I mean that. He came home with a hand out on Five Languages of Love. I have been reading a lot over the past few months and brought this to his attention a couple weeks ago and sent him the link to see what his Love Language is.
      Last night he told me he didn't even remember we had a conversation about this topic - this was the first he has ever heard of it. This "not hearing or not remembering" has been a common theme for the past 18 of our 27 years of marriage. Should I blow it off - just forget that he obviously was yet again, checked out? When will he ever get that "hearing me" is important to me? We have discussed this in counseling over and over.

      I am feeling defeated. I know I need to work on me and I am trying to do that, but it is so hard to see that he isn't working a god damn bit on himself.
      I am afraid - afraid that I will ultimately be alone. I don't want to be alone - honestly - I just want my H to love me. God I know I sound so desperate today, but that is how I have been feeling for the past few days, It's just hard to say it out loud.

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    5. Do you see the connection on how you felt lonely, unlovable, uncared for because that part of him was not feeding you but he was feeding the OW. No wonder you felt like crap. No wonder you were lonely. He ate the feast and you were the left overs. What he did to you was the worst I have seen on this blog. I can't believe I'm saying this but hang in there until you see how this plays out. I can't begin to tell you how feelings, memories, emotions, intimacy evolves and changes. It doesn't make sense, there is no rational, it is beyond comprehension, it doesn't make sense. But it will make sense regardless if you build a new marriage or let him go. Hang in there your and his vision will become clearer, your heart will be stronger. What I don't get is if he loved her so damn much why didn't he leave you? That would have been very easy for him. Why didn't he leave you? I wouldn't let him blow me off, give a partial answer or what ever else bulllshit he tries to pull. Why did he stay with you? I would want to know why he stayed with you? Why did he choose you to stick with you? He could have left but why didn't he? Other people divorce, they have kids. Was it kids, money, career, laziness? What was so special about you that he stayed? Get your bullshit meter ready and call him out on it if needed. There was obviously something very special about you. If she was all that special he would have left you in a heart beat. Maybe he needs to ask himself to this question. Hang in there. You are sounding better each week.

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    6. 1998,
      Your husband may never be able to be that guy that you want/need. The one who can articulate his feelings, who can tell you how much you matter. I think the only way some of these guys (the ones who aren't psychopaths) can conduct affairs for so long is to convince themselves that nobody is getting hurt -- they have these "rules" or "boundaries" as your husband did -- whereby they think they're being "honest" by letting the OW know they'll never leave their marriage. And they think this makes them good guys!! It's insane, of course. But until your husband really unpacks all this stuff, it makes a sort of sense to him.
      Again, I urge you to give yourself the time to heal. Within that time, you'll start to get a clearer picture of just what your husband is capable of in his own recovery. He'll either begin to get in touch with actual emotions or he won't. He'll either be able to really own up to the devastation he's caused in a way that's about you and not just about him...or he won't. But by that time, you'll have a better idea of what you will or won't tolerate as you move forward. You'll be feeling stronger and can decide whether to use that strength to rebuild your marriage or to begin a life without him.

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    7. Anonymous 1998
      You're story resonated with me. I found out seven months ago that my husband had been having an affair for our entire relationship. He started seeing a woman during his first marriage and “just never ended things.” It's devastating to find out that none of your memories or experiences belong to just you. Everything for the past fifteen years has an asterisk next to it with a footnote that reads, "This was nice, but he was also in a relationship with another woman." I am having so much trouble getting through this. I took down all our wedding pictures. Every time I looked at them my heart aches. It feels like a lie. Everything before D-Day feels like a lie. My husband wasn't just having an affair he was living a double life. In one life he was a husband who to everyone looking in appeared to adore his wife, his kids and his life, but in the other he was a philandering cheater. This makes the humiliation so much worse, because we socialized with the OW and her spouse. I can't help, but wonder if every time someone told us how cute we were or how much he loved me she was rolling her eyes. He told her the most intimate details of our marriage; confiding in her all the things he "hated" about me. He couldn’t have destroyed me more if I’d given him a flowchart and a map.
      My husband too has pushed me to commit to going "all in" with our marriage, but I told him I didn't want there to be any more lies between us. Telling him I was 100% committed to this marriage would be a lie. There are days I can barely even look at him without becoming physically sick. I am not sure I will EVER be able to forgive him for the pain he has caused me. My counselor says that's all normal and that for at least the first year I just need to survive. So every day get up with a goal to survive that day and the next day the same thing. If it ends up being a good day “YAY!” if not at least I survived. If he needs a commitment more than survival then he’s come to the wrong place. For the past fifteen years I was the most committed spouse he could ever have hoped for, but that person is dead. He killed her and he can just be patient while I try to figure out who I am going forward and whether or not this new me can really move on with a man who betrayed me in such an egregious way. According to my counseling there will come a day when I will “just know” that I’m either ready to commit to giving him 100% of my love again or I’m ready to move on. In the meantime he is going to have to prove that he’s made changes in himself and he’s worthy of my love, because I WILL NOT go through this again!!
      Anyway, I wish I had good advice or even something to make the bad days better, but I don't. I will tell you that I have seen changes in my H since the affair ended and he cut her out of his life. It's amazing how much easier it is to work on a marriage when there are only two people in the marriage. I realize everyday how much living this double life affected him and our marriage. Good luck going forward. I would not wish this journey on my worst enemy and even though I don’t know you I’m so very sorry you’re going through this!

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  21. The cycling of pain / reprocessing stuff. Ugh. I hate it. Yesterday we had a stupid fight in the morning where we just kept escalating. The fight was over, but by the time we went to bed at night, I was still unsettled. He asked me if I wanted to talk. So we started talking. That led to another fight about his porn addiction and cheating. He cried, I cried. I beat my head on the headboard (and not in the fun way!). I felt like I was back to the day he told me. But I had some hope, remembering what I've read on this blog. That it takes 3-5 years, and cycling is not regression, it's just the way it works.

    I think now that I've finally realized my true value (as I wrote before), there's a lot of anger there. I'm angry with myself for putting up with being treated badly, for doing all the work in my marriage, for settling for way less than I deserved, for not giving him an ultimatum years ago, for not loving myself enough to get my needs met. And I'm angry with him for taking me for granted and treating me that way. I don't like being angry. It sucks. But in my recovery from my abusive childhood, I've learned that suppressing anger doesn't work, and if I find a healthy way to let it out (not tearing my husband to shreds), it will eventually burn itself out. I hang on to the fact that I am no longer actively angry at my mother anymore. I will always hate what she did, but I don't waste time dwelling on it these days. It's just something that happened. I hope that one day I'm going to feel the same way about my husband's betrayal of me.

    It's a new day, another choice to make to forgive him, and to forgive myself for not knowing what I know now, and for not valuing myself like I do now. I did the best I could, now that I know better, I can do better. And so can he.

    Today I'm sad, but not as completely devastated as I was right after D-day, or even a few months ago. So that's got to be progress.

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    1. Gee
      I think that is great progress! I too recycled and reprocessed the pain the fact from fiction and all those roller coaster emotions! To get to the place I am now has been almost 18 months of both hell and some of the most wonderful times. I began posting on this blog in June. Only three months after the judge signed the no contact order. I thought we were home free and life was going to be great only to find my self up one day and shaking with fear and anger so deep my h really became fearful that we were not going to make it to a better place. The advice from the ladies here have given me the strength that I always had but forgot how to use! I now feel validated and each day I make a point of listing the progress and a list of to be worked on! It doesn't matter which list is longer they are both important to me and that's what I discovered! I'm the most important one and my h finally went back to treating me like I deserve! Enjoy your piece of progress too! Hugs!

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    2. Gee,
      Absolutely that's progress...and it's important to acknowledge it as such. So often we have this all-or-nothing attitude. If we're not "healed" than things are just as bad as ever. But it's a process. Like training for a marathon. I might not be able to go out and run 26 miles just after starting training but I can run a bit further each day. Some days, I'll fall back. And others I'll race ahead. And I'll get there. Step by step by step.

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    3. Gee, you are an amazing woman to have experienced what you have and come out so strong and wise. You are beautiful.

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  22. I'm not doing well- I talked to my niece last Friday- she had stayed with us for a month and interned with my husband the Spring prior to Dday. Post Dday, I had asked my husband if my the ow had seen my niece. His response was - yes in passing. I found out from my neice that he actually introduced the 2 of them. He gave me the impression that the ow had just seen her with him and then later questioned who she was. According to my H, ow and him were going through a bad time and not speaking for the majority of the time my niece was there. I was devastated that my husband omitted this fact. This is my family and he's introduced her to the woman he screwed and he doesn't think I have any right to know that!!! He's trying to tell me that he's not lying because he answered what I asked and he can't read my mind to know what specific details I would want to know.

    I feel like every few months something like this happens and it sets us back so much. I'm trying to piece together a whole chunk of my life that was inaccurate and he keeps handing me half pieces or pieces that he says are right but then I found out they're not. I hate this! And instead of just admitting he was wrong - it's my fault for not asking more specific questions. Yes I should be more of a cop because he's a lying sack of shit.

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    1. Lea,
      It's brutal when we're pouring over our past like a forensic investigator trying to piece together what's true and what's not and our spouses give us half-truths or total lies or leave things out altogether. The challenge is to figure out what he's forgetting to tell us or what he simply deems unimportant and what he's intentionally lying about. Rebuilding a marriage after betrayal requires absolute honesty from both parties -- even when that might feel hurtful. Trying to "protect" us generally only leads to our total rage because we feel, yet again, prevented from making our choices about what we know and what we don't.
      However...so many of the details that we think are crucial barely register to him. In your mind, he's introducing his mistress to your family. How brazen! In his mind, perhaps, he's introducing work colleagues and that's the end of it.
      In no way am I minimizing the fact that he was cheating on you with someone at work. What I am doing is pointing out that what we think of as utterly brazen is, to some guys, no big deal. After all, they're cheating on us. It's easy to think the little stuff is, well, little.
      At a certain point, we need to stop letting the details completely derail us. We need to accept that we're not going to need to know everything. There are details my husband did give me that I can now, honestly, not remember. Because in the grand scheme of this, they just don't matter. What matters is that he cheated. And that is NOT okay in any way. Doesn't matter with whom or where or when. He cheated. And that's what needs addressing.
      Perhaps decide what questions absolutely need answering -- really think about what you want to know -- and then ask him, maybe in writing, to give you the answers. Make sure you really want to know. There are things I was told that I wish I didn't know -- stupid things like positions, etc, that make no real difference other than to hurt me further. And then, when you have your answers, figure out what's next. Do the answers change your decision to work it out? If so, get a lawyer. If they don't, then work on letting go. It's so hard, I know. But it's also the only way to get through this.

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  23. Lea, this might sound nuts, but I get it. I found out months later that the OW had met my dog. My husband was traveling a few days ahead of me and had our small, very old, handicapped dog with him. The dog could not get out of bed by herself so she was happy to be wherever she was put, as long as she was in her bed. But her bed was in the bedroom they shared. I asked if the OW had met my dog--she HAD. I was FURIOUS. I asked if she had spent the the night, the answer was no--the why? She didn't like MY DOG. I was utterly PISSED. She met my dog and had the gall to not LIKE my dog? How could my husband cheat on me and then put up with THAT crap. having sex with a woman who didn't like our DOG. There were a lot of questions I never asked, because I did not care. how old, how young, how pretty, what positions, I didnt care and i still dont. he cheated on me with someone--bottom line. and i had a zillion questions, but not about them. To this day, coming up on 2 years of his stupid decisions I will never understand how he lied to me with such ease and gaslighted me for a year. But I am still standing and although I can be cynical, I am not bitter. why? I dont know. I just worked and worked and worked on getting through it. I feel fortunate he took the ride with me, but know I would have even without him.

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    1. Elle and Steam- thank you both for your wisdom and insight. You've provided me with a different perspective to look at this with. It's so hard- I feel like my head has got it down but my heart is trailing far behind latching onto every new hurt and breaking apart over again.

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    2. Lea,
      The head always gets it first, in my experience. You'll get there. Consider implementing the 24-hour rule: if you have a question, wait 24 hours before you ask it. It's amazing how often the question disappears. I could rarely remember what I wanted to know. If I did still have the question, then I'd had time to consider what I was really asking, which was usually a variation of "why do you deserve this second chance?" or "please tell me you'll never ever do this again".

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  24. I've been away for quite some time and did not know where to post this. Here goes.

    Karma does not have a time frame or a speed. Karma travels at the speed of Karma. You can not rush Karma. You can not stop Karma. You CAN prevent BAD Karma. If you are wondering where your richly deserved Karma is - I can tell you. Karma is there but you may not see it in your lifetime.

    HIMSELF was diagnosed with lung cancer as I posted a few months ago. His lung cancer has spread to his abdomen and his spine. The radiation therapy he had when first diagnosed worked great but the cancer came back. He is now having chemotherapy. He was also diagnosed with hepatitis (a gift from one of his women). Forgot to mention there is a slim possibility he has prostate cancer not related to the lung cancer.

    DDay was more like DYear++ as he sloooooooooowwwwwwwwly revealed some of the truth about his 20+/- relationship with another woman. In that 20 year time he was also sexually involved with other women. KARMA.

    Because I am not a heartless uncaring person I am helping HIMSELF with his healthcare. Talk about conflicted feelings.

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    1. SS,
      Welcome back!!
      Wow, that's quite the karma kick, isn't it? I'm sad for him, to be honest. However, I recognize just how much you've tolerated for so many years. And I'm not surprised that you're choosing to help him during this crisis. Please, SS, make sure that you're also getting the support that YOU need and the time that YOU need to stay strong and tend to yourself.

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  25. SS i really am sorry to hear about your husband. We know you are a good caring person and I hope he realizes that by now. You're a friggin SAINT.. You know, this was one of my biggest fear after D-day, that we would get to where we should have been all along and then one of us would get sick and miss out. I am so sorry life continues to be such a battle. Good thoughts for you.

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  26. Prayers for me please. I've already been having such a hard week but now although I have tried repeatedly not to know her birthday despite the fact that I know my husband shelled out so much money on gifts for her- I found out what it was this week because of a credit card charge from e card company. He made a subscription last year on her birthday and it automatically renewed this year on the same date.

    If that's not enough tomorrow will mark the day last year that my dad had a stroke that nearly killed him. He will be paralysed on one side, unable to speak,or walk, completely dependent, and combative.

    The following day, while my kids and I are at the hospital with my dad, my husband will bring the ow to our home for the second time but this time they'll go to our bedroom to have sex. I'm falling apart and we've been so awful to each other that he's not even here to help reassure me through this.

    So many more hard days coming up ... I feel like I'm just falling apart and going crazy.

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    1. Lea,
      This is so tough for you and I'm so sorry. But you'll get through this. While it might FEEL like last year, it's NOT last year. You're in a different place than you were. Your husband is in a different place than he was. This is NOT then.
      So catalogue the positive changes in the year since. What things, no matter how small, have changed for the better? Dealing with a combative father and recovering from a spouse's betrayal would bring the strongest woman to her knees. But here you are. Forging ahead. Celebrate that strength. Celebrate yourself. You're a warrior.

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  27. Cactus Flower, same boat here and I get it. Funny thing is I took the blame and made up a story--crazy.

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  28. Yesterday sucked. No other way to describe it. I have PMS and I was overly sensitive. I had managed to get myself on track after a rough morning when I got a phone call from my best friend. I say best friend because our friendship spans over 25 years but we have drifted apart in the past several years due to some very serious personal issues she has had. I tried to keep up my end of the friendship but eventually backed off when I realized that it was truly becoming one-sided. She has since moved across the country and our contact is sporadic. She has no clue what's going on with me snd my husband.
    So yesterday, she called and we chatted. She commented on how happy I look in my pics on FB and how my husband and I look so "in love", almost like when we first met. I told her we are really happy and things are going well. We moved on to other subjects and she started talking about the new car I purchased. I jokingly said I must be going through a mid-life crisis and then she said, "Well, whatever you do, don't have an affair!" and laughed like it was the funniest thing she had ever said. I got a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes and was grateful that the call ended shortly after that.
    I know she has no clue. I know it was meant to be a joke, but it just hurt. She was with me the night I met my husband, she was the maid of honor at our wedding and has always viewed my husband as a brother. I'm sure she sees our marriage as bulletproof.
    I told my husband about the conversation last night and then I just fell apart. Disappointed in myself for letting it affect me that way.
    Hoping today is a better day.

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    1. Hoping its a better day for you too. We go through so many hard ones, and often on our own because there's not always someone there to turn to and talk with. It's especially hard since there are so many things that can set the pain off that we're not prepared for - like a comment fom a friend meant to be humorous, but for us there's no humor because it's our reality. I always think to myself that i need a pocket sized therapist to bring with me everywhere.

      Don't be disappointed in yourself- each one of us is doing the best we can do, for that day, for that moment. Some days are better than others- my brother reminds me to look at the overall trajectory and that it's going up, despite the daily fluctuations. So keep your head up and I'll keep mine up too and we'll all trudge along together - if there is one blessing in this that I have truly found and never question in all of this, it is that were quite a remarkable group of women. To be hurt and devastated but to still see another's pain despite how consuming our own pain is- that's incredible. We're beautiful, empathetic women who stop to pull each other through!! No woman left behind!! You have this day Dandelion and God has you. He has each of us- I truly know and believe that.

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    2. Dandelion,
      Disappointed in yourself? I think it's wonderful that you can let yourself be affected by that. That you haven't hardened yourself against that. That you're vulnerable...and within your marriage. That you can share that with him. That's amazing. Be proud of yourself.
      I wonder if your friend also knows the pain of betrayal. It seems an odd comment, even in a culture where mid-life affairs are a punchline. As you and I both know, far more women know the pain of betrayal than we really know.

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  29. CF,
    Ugh. I too remember the humiliation of being tested. I hope you get to the point where you do feel you can trust yourself...and him. Until then, you have no reason to feel embarrassed. It's on HIM. And, frankly, nurses and doctors are so used to this...

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  30. I found out that my husband was having an affair with a co worker that was on and off for 12 years. We have been together for 24 years and married for 19. We have three children and I was totally suprised. We were always together and he never came home late. He never went out without me. We slept together every night and was intimate. In fact, I only found out because they were caught by her husband. Things have been great between us now but I still feel that I should have left. I am still somewhat in denial and I can't believe that the man that I loved and trusted could be capable of this. Am I living with a stranger? I krep looking for answers. He says that she made him feel like a wanted man and that's what the attraction was. He never loved her. The hardest part is accepting that this went on for 12 years. I feel like I shared my life with someone else. He also allowed her to visit our home and she even helped me plan his 50th birthday. I had no clue. I never thought that I could forgive him if he cheated on me. I need to know how to move on

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    1. I don't think anyone here on this blog thought our h would be a cheater. I'm sure I always said I if it happens to me I would leave his sorry ass. However when it did happen, I discovered that I still loved him so much and it is so much better now than when his affair was happening. I remember days of nothing but tears and then I found this blog and read so much advice on how to move forward! It's not easy but it does get easier . I. Think for me it was because of how my h has changed his ways of dealing with my emotions! He has put a lot of effort into our time together and he has been more honest with details of how the affair started and why it lasted for a extra year after he tried to end the affair. His ow was a bit crazy and she black mailed his by threatening to tell me their truth. Once she had told me she continued for six months and h had to file harrasment charges. Now that we have no contact we can begin to work on our lives and put our love first! I think it all depends on what you want and how your h is behaving. You may benefit from individual council. Time also helped me. I know you will find your inner strength to move forward also! Have faith in you! Read more of these post. Go back and read the old posts and you can see how far some of us have come and believe me I never thought I'd be the one to say it does get better when you get to the point of knowing what you want from your relationship. Hugs for the pain I know you feel it hurts worse than any I have ever felt. But it does get better! One day at a time!

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  31. Thank you, Lea and Elle, for your words. Today was a better day. Once again, I'm grateful to be able to come here and share. Lea, how right you were when you pointed out how remarkable this group is, the strength we find within ourselves to not only pull through, but to help others along the way.
    Aside from the initial hurt, I think what occurred to me yesterday was that I was hearing someone make light of what, as Lea said, is now my reality and knowing how many times I had been that person. So many times I was quick to judge cheating spouses and the spouses who stayed after infidelity. It was easy to label anyone who stayed as weak. It only I had known how far that is from the truth.
    Elle, my friend has never been married but has been in a few serious relationships. It's possible that she has experienced betrayal and just never shared it with me. I also found her comment odd. I think it speaks more to her (and plenty of others') thought that infidelity doesn't occur in couples that love one another. :-(
    This whole experience is making me so much more aware of the fact that you never really know what's going on in other people's lives. I'm working to be more cognizant of that.

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  32. Cactus Flower,

    As a retired health care provider I can say yes, yes we are quite used to seeing women come in and after years and years of "I'm fine" they request the whole friggin battery of STD testing. There is one thing that I might mention. Most of the GYN doctors do not test for Hepatitis. This insidious disease can lay dormant for years with no symptoms. Ask your GYN to test you for hepatitis. The doctor may tell you that if you did not do injectable drugs or come in to contact with blood you do not need this test. I told my doctor - I do not know what HIMSELF did with these women and I insisted on being tested and I tested negative - thank goodness I do not have Hepatitis. There are times when we must be our own advocate for the health care we require.

    Anyone reading this - REGARDLESS what your sex partner tells you about condoms and SAFER sex -- GET TESTED!! It was only emotional affair?? We never really had sex. GET TESTED. I never penetrated her. GET TESTED. I only put my fingers inside her. GET TESTED. I do not care if he only looked at her across the room (his explanation) -- GET TESTED. YOU were not there and YOU have NO way of knowing what happened. GET TESTED.

    OK I'm better now. I will get down off my soap box.

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  33. Rosie, which way do you want to move on? I dont know how long ago you found out or what steps have been taken to get to things being "great" now. Was there therapy or were you just urged to "move on" by your husband. If you have not been through therapy i have to highly recommend it as someone who has lead a double life (or even someone who has had just ONE night astray) I am sure has some issues that need addressing. It's horrifying to find out what you heard. Horrifying..and you can spill it here, we are all sure you were a lot more than "surprised". Blindsided, upended, crushed, destroyed, disgusted, shocked---etc etc are just a few of the words we can use, to start

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  34. Sam here. So I think I haven't posted in months, although I have read some posts. 2 plus years out things are pretty great for the most part. I am triggered about once a month. The last trigger was probably last week though I'm not even sure what set it off. My husband saw me yelling at the kids one night then the next morning after they left for school said I seem kind of upset. I said I was. He asked if it was anything he could do. I said not really; just rehashing same stuff which he prob doesn't remember about his first affair over 10 years ago anyway. He said try me. So I asked a bunch of questions, some he knew answers to some he didn't, some I had asked before, some new. Nothing really substantial. He still doesn't remember when it started but he remembers the beginning of the end was October of 2005; the end was sometime around march of 2006; I told him six months, why did he stay in if the end was 6 months. He said he had no idea; there was no logic to it; looking back he has no idea what he was doing; it was like an addiction. I read that somewhere recently in an article on line, that when the affair is going well in the beginning it's like a really good addiction (if there even is such a thing) and when it's not it's like a really awful addiction.

    I read in this blog all the time about the cheaters with addictions, sex addiction, cheaters who were abused as children, cheaters with parents who had addictions or were emotionally unavailable, etc. One of the recent blogs discussed betrayed spouses with parents who were emotionally unavailable, or who were abandoned and so developed a fear of abandonment.

    We were none of those people. We were two ordinary people with ordinary childhoods. I blame society. He thought sleeping with many different women would make him feel like a stud because that's what in the mass media, movies, tv (fonzie, sam Malone from cheers, joey from friends; that's what guys do. In the movies and the public eye affairs are treated as exciting and juicy gossip; not as destructive. And since he felt ignored by women as a teen (what normal boy didn't) and slept with 3 women before me he never felt like a stud. So when the opportunity arose he took it. He has said many times the affair had nothing to do with me or our relationship or his feelings for me but had everything to do with him.

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  35. Sam part 2

    He once asked me with so much evidence I had supporting his affairs (although it was never black and white irrefutable till 2 years ago) why did I never say anything; demand anything; confront him. My denial was so strong. I knew he was cheating but kept hoping otherwise. I knew he would deny without irrefutable evidence. I kept trying to catch him but kept hoping I would find evidence I was wrong. I thought if I found out that he was cheating I would have to leave or that he would leave me for them. I definitely had a fear of abandonment. Although I think if I found the evidence before we had children I would have left, when it happened minutes before I woke my kids up to get ready for camp I knew I wasn't leaving. I just figured we would stay married for the kids. I didn't plan to rebuild shit. My husband and I both work hard but we have a comfortable life. But in the hour after I discovered some emails he said so many things -- he loved me being first and foremost (the affair that I found out about was his second physical affair that I knew was over based on the evidence and the fact that she moved2 years prior).

    So why did I have this fear of abandonment? Society. Society says that if your husband cheats its your fault or a symptom of a bad marriage, so that means you are failure. Society says that you have to divorce his ass or you are being a martyr, staying in a loveless marriage for your kids or money or whatever. Society says once a cheater always a cheater.

    How to combat this large scale, I don't know. But I have both a boy and a girl. I hope they grow up without looking at sex as a means of achieving self esteem, which has to come from within. And I hope if and when they are cheated on they don't blame themselves. And I hope that I am using my life experience to teach them about forgiveness and not holding grudges and trying to see things from other people's points of view.

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  36. Sam part 3

    Please forgive the rambling. It's 3 am my time and I have insomnia yet again (very infrequent now as opposed to nightly in the months just after d day).

    Why am I triggered today? who knows? that's y im here tonight, trying to figure it out through this blog. I think it has to do with October. the second affair partner came to visit my h after moving back to her home state one last time in October. I find it weird though that this was the second time I was triggered by a time period of the 2nd physical affair but I just keep thinking about the first physical affair partner. Maybe it's because my h actually detests the 2nd woman now but I don't get the same vibe about the first. Maybe it's because the first was now over 10 years ago so he doesn't remember any specific dates and I don't have any credit card statements to reconstruct any of their history. They never went anything or anywhere. They used to go to cold stone (ice cream place) occasionally together. They went to a movie (which I now cant watch, of course.

    Yesterday I wrote this email to my h which I haven't sent (I do this a lot; it helps me organize my thoughts and get them out, even if only in my drafts folder)

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  37. (My husband told me yesterday that I seemed angry at him)

    So u want to know why I seem upset and angry at u? This is why:

    I keep looking at that picture of us from my brother's wedding thinking you look so happy how am I supposed to know you're lying? (the day my brother got married 10 years ago I went to work and my h apparently took off and invited his affair partner over to swim in our pool naked and have sex in our basement on our sofa; I know this because I heard a 10 year old voicemail from her stating the day and date and describing how wonderful the day was. we have since moved, although we still have the sofa)

    Of course you looked happy-- you just spent your day off from work with your mistress while your mom took care of your kid and your wife went to work. Who wouldn't be happy? Maybe the key to telling when you're telling the truth is to look at pictures and see when you're miserable. Then THAT means you're being faithful to me.

    One of the things I found when I was cleaning out the pantry the other day was the champagne bucket that your new office staff gave us 11 years ago. (h is no longer at that job) When I saw it and read the card about marriage blah blah blah I said yeah except at this point you were already with your first mistress (h hates that word) and had broken those stupid marriage vows.

    Somehow your relationship with her seems to taint everything. You might ask why do I obsess about her, why do I LET her take up so much of my time? I would answer that YOU'RE the one who let her into our marriage and brought her into MY life. I don't know how else to explain the way I feel about her other than to say that I feel like she took something from me. I don't know what it is and I don't know how to get it back.

    That last paragraph is totally the problem. I am open to any suggestions/ideas.

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    1. Sam
      I pondered your questions most of the night and the best I can come up with is pretty much the same thing I feel. She took my innocence and my best friend and she punished me for their choices to be cheaters! I had no choice in his life choices at that time! She stole time from me...the time he wanted to be with her and the time he spent hiding their secrets for an additional year plus six months of her crazy time trying to stay between us! I'm sure the details for you are some what different than mine but these are the things I feel she took from me. Why do you obsess? Like me you don't know the answer to some of the questions that lead him to make choices that still affect you! Questions my h will never have answers for so I struggle with those unanswered questions! Hugs to you for the pain you continue to have!

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    2. Sam,
      I'm not sure there is an explanation that will satisfy. Like Theresa wrote, I think there's absolutely a sense of "how DARE they..." rob me of my time, my energy, my worldview, my sense of self and on and on. There's a sense of outrage that, after all, they do "get away" with it, right? There's no way to unring that bell.
      It's why, I think, there's little to be gained by consistently revisiting it. While we all need to process it -- and I want to be careful I'm not minimizing the value of processing the pain -- I just don't see the benefit in trying to make sense of nonsense. I think you're right, Sam, in that our culture romanticizes and frankly sanctions cheating. More marriages will experience infidelity than will not. There's no conversation around the COST of cheating. All we ever see are the benefits -- the excitement, the sexiness, the glamour. If we do see the wife, it's through a lens of pity. Or we admire her pursuit of revenge...as if that's a way to live a life. (First Wives Club, for instance.)
      There's really no blueprint for just moving on with it. At some point, I think we have to make peace with the fact that our husbands were assholes. If they're still assholes, then it's time to show them the door. But if they've been accountable for what they did and realized they don't want to be that guy...and we want to give them that chance...then I think we need to just leave it at that. It sucks, absolutely. It's not fair. But I think it's ultimately the only way to leave this where it isn't continuing to cloud your life.

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    3. Sam,
      I felt the same way as you did. My solution, not the healthiest, I'll admit my way to deal with some types of pain is avoidance, is I just ripped up every picture. I threw away pictures of my husband and me during his two year adultry state. I just couldn't bear it. I threw away clothes that touched her, him and me. I threw away jewelry, sold a car, furniture. I tried several times to deal with it but couldn't. I have to do an action, do something to feel better. Yes, it does taint everything but that will get less with time. Our husbands have no idea how far reaching their actions rip through everything. But think about what an illusion you were under? Think about the illusion she took away so you see things for what they are. You will get to point where you are so sick of thinking about the OW that you just quit thinking about it with the intensity that you are now. At first everything reminded me of the OW, it does get less with time and if your husband who is willing to do anything to keep you, really tries to change this makes a big difference.

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  38. Sam I have been having a rough October and I'm not going to be of much help but somehow, even though my mind did not remember, my body does. The lighting of the days, halloween coming up (halloween was a TERRIBLE day that year)

    My D day was not in October, but it is the month, I found out later that my H drifted from his online fantasy life and crossed into a physical affair--the bastard slept with someone else. I found out just two months later, but I remember how awful that previous October was. His drinking had spiraled. We were apart and his texts were sporadic and at all hours. a text at midnight to tell me he was going to sleep--then a text at 4am to tell me he had insomnia (wrong--he was guilt texting pre and post sex with his ho) Everything was just SO off, and yet I had no idea there was another woman. he was spiraling so hard in his alcoholism that the thought that anyone would want him never approached my radar. Ha--drunk men who have forgotten there are boundaries are a damn good target/match for prostitutes.

    Right now--this year I know I have a better man, I know he's not the same guy. NO drinking has left him able to recreate those boundaries, so I feel pretty safe--very safe actually

    . I'm not happy he still watches porn (but that's a concession that I made, that I was "ok" with it)--i figure he grew up with it, it's a lifelong habit and I dont think he's be able to give it up, and maybe that's MY problem, that I said ok, but i have never had much of a problem with it--I am just not a fan and dont watch it myself.

    I sat with this sort of bubbling anger all last weekend instead of putting it on him. Should I have put it on him? I dont think so. I dont know. I sat with the 24 hour decision--if it felt like something I could not deal with myself , i would talk to him after 24 hours-- but it passed and I'm ok. Triggers just suck.

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    1. I felt the urge to tear into my husband this weekend. I was feeling down, and he was concerned, and I felt like saying, "Oh NOW you're concerned??? Where was the concern for the first 12.5 years of our relationship while you were starving me of sex and affection and intimacy so you could pursue your porn addiction? Where was your concern when you were meeting other women online? Where was your concern when you were sneaking out of the house to go meet your whore?"

      But I've said all that before, and I know it's not productive. So instead I went into our room and wrote all that in my journal. I wrote it as if I was writing an angry letter to him. I felt better afterwards. Journaling has saved my sanity, if you haven't tried it, I highly recommend it.

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    2. For what it's worth, I'm a year out also and in my opinion listening to me cry my heart out and talk about how I feel is a part of his penance. I figure I deserve someone to hold me while I cry. I agree with Gee though - journals are sanity savers. The tears go on his shoulder, the rage goes in the journal.

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    3. Aelia,
      Sounds like a country song: The Tears Go On His Shoulder, The Rage Goes In the Journal. ;)

      Delete
  39. H and I are about to renew our vows on a cruise. He feels happy and serious about it, I'm glad he is taking it seriously, but I feel very little about it. I feel like they are just words and that I didn't break the vows the first time- that he will do what he will in the future and I have no control. It's coming up very, very soon. I've stated I want nothing from our original wedding, including the rings. I bought a dress and new shoes. I don't feel warm and fuzzy, just hurt and sad that this is why we've chosen to re-new the vows. Yes it may be "too soon" in some respects, but I do want him to make that commitment to me for what it's worth... I still abide by the vows we said 20 years ago, even the "for better and for worse" part, which there's been a lot of "worse." I guess I'm more telling my story than asking a question... and I think my first rings will stay in the Caribbean at the bottom of the sea.

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    1. GI,
      I think that would be tough -- to go through a ceremony that feels meaningless to you. Can you reframe it not so much as renewing your vows as renewing your desire to rebuild a marriage. Perhaps if your shift your focus from what happened to what you hope to create together -- a relationship of integrity, of mutual respect -- it might feel more authentic than the usual wedding "forever after" bliss, which, let's be honest, we all know is bullshit even in marriages that don't experience infidelity.

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    2. Elle, it had not occurred to look at this from that perspective. Thank you, it's so hard to look ahead when you've been so hurt, but it is our goal to re-build our marriage to something better than it was. I've been feeling like I'm going through the motions often. Not just with this renewal, but in other ways as well. I understand that healing is a long process not a destination and I will try to view this looking ahead rather than a bandage on something broken. It's so hard to see outside of one's own situation. I will try to keep my eye on the prize, that's all I can do. I guess I don't often feel I'll ever trust him again even though he's doing very well with taking steps to regain it. I still need a lot of time- this whole thing was so far off my radar that it scares me. Thank you again...

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    3. GI,
      I think it was off all our radar, which is what creates that PTSD response. We become terrified that it's happening or will happen again...and we, again, won't have a clue. Our world feels so unsafe.
      There isn't a bandage big enough to put on an injury like betrayal. I think, instead, we look at that old marriage as shattered. Flattened. But through the rubble we retrieve the parts that are still strong. Our love for each other perhaps. Our genuine desire to share our lives. And then we rebuild, using new tools that perhaps we didn't have – an ability to communicate about the really tough stuff. Radical honesty, even when it would be easier to stay mute. A deeper loyalty for having almost lost it.
      Yes, you need time. And I suspect that feeling forced to go through this might be part of what's keeping you stuck. Perhaps it would be wise to share this with your husband -- that you'll do this for him but that it means something a bit different for you. A rebuilding rather than a renewal. A promise rather than a guarantee.

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    4. GI
      Be true to yourself and honest with your husband about how you feel in the long run it is better. My problem was I lost voice and didn't tell my husband how I felt. Now I do. I had to learn how to talk to him not in an acusing way. Your right they are just words. Tell him you would rather see the changes in him than just say them. Just enjoy the cruise with your husband as creating new memories. You can say, it's not that I don't ever want to renew our vows just not now. I just want to enjoy our new marriage. I agree with Elle just look forward. I read on this site I think - The past is in another country and we don't live that way anymore. Even two years out I couldn't renew my vows.

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    5. Thank you Lynn- I especially like thinking of the past as another country where we no longer live... that truly resonates with me. I did talk to him after reading Elle's response and told him that I had been seeing this as some attempt to fix something broken, but I want it to be specific moment that marks the new beginning we've already started building a foundation upon. I think your advice is priceless, though, honesty has to exist on both sides. He has been doing all those things he needs to do to regain my trust and is deeply regretful. So, I do see changes in him, but there is a long road ahead even so. Thank you so much for your help! I am really going to use that "another country" analogy for certain. I like that a lot... I appreciate your great advice and wish the best for you-

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  40. I am feeling stuck today. There are ongoing troubles with my asperger son and these are the same stresses that brought my husband to his bad choices. He has been let down by a work venture (we made financial sacrifices to build up a project that could have brought rewards, it has been messed up by a particular person in the company.) Now my husband has to start all over again, a good prospect but requiring energy and verve that don't exist in our home right now. I need to be supportive to him but I am still crushed by the struggles with our eldest and personally having not been able to get back to writing my books properly - I try but my head is so full and overwhelmed. My husband and i had a restful night and day away but beforehand had to juggle and struggle with my son who was determined not to go along with the 'babysitting' arrangements and refused to leave the house. We try to create nice times but everything is such an effort and is often derailed by the obstinance of the eldest boy. Of course in the face of that I can't feel positive about my relationship with my husband. He is trying his best - and he is best at practical support and 'nice times' and I feel like i am still harping on about this core rift that, despite my ongoing openness with him he chose to lie to me for so long. Obviously our ways of coming together were not the same. (I know that is a very shorthand way of looking at it and he had plenty reasons to go off the rails and feel like he needed a boost). I just feel we are compatible on an interest level and sex life is good but there is a bit in the middle, that feeling of emotional connection/romance that is missing and has been missing for most of our relationship. When you say Elle, live it as it is at the time and decide at each moment what is right there is great truth in that and we can have great times. But there is also a reality that he will never respond to me emotionally in the way that I need. It seems pedantic to make it a deal breaker, we are a family, we get on, we have children but it also feels to me that I have died inside and can't feel anything. He says he loves me but I don't feel it, I very much like him but do I love him, now, especially after all this. He didn't choose to come close and discuss out what was going on between us. I have to admit culpability too as for many years I held a torch for a first love where circumstances pulled us apart and I never resolved it. My husband knew this from when I first met him. How could he feel confident with me in the face of that. I orginally split from my husband when we were in our ealry twenties because I didn't feel I was being fair to him but we renewed contact and again, had so much compatability and some spark (if not that first, powerful one). I have felt guilty all my married life about these mixed feeling and was honest about them. I suppose though I should have gone to counselling or whatever. However worse, with my husband's knowledge I renewed contact with this person and now, tables turned, I began to realise that I was becoming too attached emotionally to him and began to recognise that I might be having an 'emotional affair.' (though there were no inappropriate exchanges, there was an intensity of contact) So at the same time our family lives became too much for us to support each other we both turned elsewhere. The only saving grace I can give myself (but it is even one?) is that my husband knew about the contact and how I was trying to resolve the mixed up feelings of the past. My husband said not a word about his 18th month relationship and he became extremely nasty and hostile and said awful things about me to the OW, was ready to leave for her and lied about renewed contact. (Part 2 coming)

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  41. Part 2: I have to admit culpability too as for many years I held a torch for a first love where circumstances pulled us apart and I never resolved it. My husband knew this from when I first met him. How could he feel confident with me in the face of that. I orginally split from my husband when we were in our ealry twenties because I didn't feel I was being fair to him but we renewed contact and again, had so much compatability and some spark (if not that first, powerful one). I have felt guilty all my married life about these mixed feeling and was honest about them. I suppose though I should have gone to counselling or whatever. However worse, with my husband's knowledge I renewed contact with this person and now, tables turned, I began to realise that I was becoming too attached emotionally to him and began to recognise that I might be having an 'emotional affair.' (though there were no inappropriate exchanges, there was an intensity of contact) So at the same time our family lives became too much for us to support each other we both turned elsewhere. The only saving grace I can give myself (but it is even one?) is that my husband knew about the contact and how I was trying to resolve the mixed up feelings of the past. My husband said not a word about his 18th month relationship and he became extremely nasty and hostile and said awful things about me to the OW, was ready to leave for her and lied about renewed contact.At the same time have I ever had the proper feelings my husband deserved from me (though I married him with the best of intentions.) I am not in contact now with my first flame though I really miss the cultural exchanges and discussions on creativity we had and the kind consolation of his friendship in difficult times. But I am a charlatan really here, suffering from my husband's deception when on other boards I would be the one slated for renewing contact with someone from the past. Despite doing it 'above board' it could not be good for our marriage. My husband and I have, as I've said so much going for us and it feels churlish to wonder if its enough, the whole package, because who ever gets that, it's always two imperfect people together. Right now though I feel I care for him but don't have that strong well spring of love for him that I hear people even here talk about. We've been incompatible emotionally over the years. He wants to change he says (and I must work on myself too) and I'm here while the kids are young anyway but I want more than just to wait around to find out if it turns out to be the relationship we needed from each other along. I feel ashamed of myself really, mixed in with everything else.

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    1. Fragments,
      You have so much going on that it's incredible you're still standing. Give yourself credit for coping with all the demands on your heart and your mind and your soul.
      I too went into my relationship with my husband still carrying something of a torch for my ex. It was a volatile relationship -- incredible highs but devastating lows. In the end, as my husband says, "the candle that burns the brightest burns the shortest." That passion often can't be sustained. But the memory of it can burn brightly. Which is, frankly, what affairs are about. They're fantasy. They're escape. They're passion without the practical aspects of life -- who's getting up with the baby tonight. Who forgot to pay the hydro.
      Whatever drove you and your ex apart is still a part of that relationship. It's easy to overlook when the stakes aren't so high -- when you're not having to imagine forever. It's easy to forget the reasons it just didn't work when you had the chance to make it work.
      But your emotional affair -- and above board or not, it was an emotional affair -- has shown you why affairs happen. It feels really good to have this new person think you're amazing. It's highly charged.
      Forget the shame...use this as a chance to unpack what happened. Maybe you and your husband are emotionally incompatible. Maybe you need the highs. Or maybe you're willing to consider that your husband feels things incredibly deeply but has felt like a consolation prize with you. Whatever it is, try and talk with him about it. Openly. Without judgement. See how you can show up for each other in ways that are meaningful. It will be uncomfortable. Change always is. But at the very least, it will help you get clear on what you can expect from your marriage and what you may have to learn to accept or decide you can't live without and leave.
      It will require time. Your both likely gun-shy about being vulnerable with each other. There has been injury on both sides. Factor in a child that requires extra attention and energy and this will be really tough.
      But if you can create a deeper relationship, it will have been worth it. Even if you determine that you're simply not meant for the long haul, the exercise of trying to connect more deeply with the father of your children will be worth it.

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  42. Anyone else think "She OWES me"? My marriage is back on track (after deepest darkest hell) , but $75000 from her and I'd be - OK...

    She owes me because I will no longer have that notion that he and I were special.
    She owes me for the pain and suffering - the hair loss, the weight gain, the lost sleep.
    She owes me for keeping my mouth shut. Her career would be over if I was open.
    She just owes me.

    Oops. $100000. That might feel better!

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    1. Hey Anonymous,
      Go for it: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/so-sue-me/201408/the-high-cost-having-affair
      Pave the way for the legions of women to come. :)

      Delete
  43. I'm sad today. Really Sad. I feel like I am in a fog - I hate it. I am tired of feeling good for a few days and then WHAM! sadness, tears, punch to the gut feeling - I just want to be happy. I just want the pain to STOP....please.
    My H is really doing his very best to be a good listener, reassuring me, checking in and actually trying to share some of his feelings little by little. But it's just not enough right now. My new job has not started, we haven't hammered out all the final details...so I am stuck in this damn apartment. I am lonely. Damn it.
    Our new home will not be finished until the week before Christmas....but we are NOT having Thanksgiving and Christmas this year - just the thought of it all makes me want to throw up. This is the home we were both so excited about.... except OW also knew what we were doing...she probably knew may more than me I am sure. Since she was my H's best FRIEND. I hate walking through this house... I can't get excited about it.
    I have individual counseling tonight again - and my latest homework is "Forgiving".
    Over the past month and a half - I have had to work on forgiving "something" - from two people: #1 my Dry Alcoholic Father and #2 My Lying Cheating H .... and last night my therapist asked me to think of ONE thing...doesn't matter what it is - just one small thing to FORGIVE the OW for. She stated this to me at the VERY end of our session.
    Let's see - what should I forgive?? Should I forgive her for being WEAK? Should I forgive her for acting like a WHORE? I am serious - I have no damn clue WHAT I should forgive her for. I just can't think about that.... I know over time forgiveness will set me free - but forgiving all these people for such hurtful shit - is just killing me.
    Why is my life so fucked up? I am so tired, mentally and physically. All of this - feels like too much today...just tooo much.
    And OW's birthday is tomorrow - I think I should send her some flowers...BLACK ROSES.

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    1. I don't think we can force forgiveness. In fact, I think it will backfire. It has to come from someplace organic. I think I get what your therapist is trying to do -- but I'm not convinced your "homework" will produce the result he/she is hoping for.
      What if you look at it less like forgiveness as in letting someone off the hook and more as forgiveness for being who they are. For instance, "forgiving" your dad might be a matter of trying to understand that he was who he was for a number of reasons, none of which had anything to do with you. He was a product of his own brain chemistry, his upbringing, his socio-economic status, his neighbourhood, his teachers, etc. etc. The other woman is the same. You're not forgiving them for what they did TO YOU so much as forgiving them for being such tragically flawed human beings. Or...you could say, screw it, I'm not ready for that yet. ;)

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    2. Forgivness is a tough word for me i think of it as acceptance to things i cannt change and working on things on can. Ps i waa thinking screw the holidays too but then i also think wtf should i lose the sparkle in my joyous family time bcuz of that shit. It gives it power but no doubt it will be hard. White xmas overtated???? Beach seems tempting or we keep tradition or maybe make new ones. Hang on 1998 find sparkle in your day evem if a little glimmer. Xoxox

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  44. Anonymous 1998
    Forgiving the ow was something I too struggled with for months. I could think of nothing but a feeling of disgust for her and the way she chose to tell me 'her' truths about the affair what she thought about my marriage being a 'fake' and on and on make me toss my cookies! I finally got to the point of view that she is mentally ill and as such she deserves some compassion. I'm not sure that's the same as forgiving her, but it brought peace to my heart because I don't have the capacity to hate anyone who is sick as she is/was. I also struggled with the forgiveness of my parents for the scars they both left on my heart. I found peace there also after many counseling sessions! I am responsible for my mother at this stage of her life and it's not easy dealing with her on a daily basis but it is my duty as the middle daughter now that our older sister passed away last year. Karma has not been kind to any of the folks in my story and for my peace of mind and my karma to come, I chose to find a way to make my hurt and hate turn into pity for the fact is mentally ill people can't help themselves. I'm not sure I agree with your therapist in regards to time to forgive the ow or find one thing you can forgive, especially if it brings you too much hurt to think about at this time of your journey! Hugs for your pain and prayers for strength!

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  45. Elle - I really like how you put the whole "forgiveness" thing. I believe I can forgive OW for being fucked up enough to believe having a relationship with my H (and vice versa) was going to solve whatever problems she has....
    But just a very small part of it - meaning, there is so much more to it all - and there is no such thing as a one fell swoop FORGIVENESS.
    I don't know if I can forgive my H for who he is at this moment in time. What if he was always like that and I just couldn't see it. I thought he was different (at least before he started his relationship with OW) and would be my prince charming. He would care for me, Love me, respect me, accept me - and that is not what was happening for the past 18 years.
    So - I don't know. I can't change him. I am a little depressed today ....

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  46. Forgiveness or even the ability to forgive the OW for being so fucked up is something that eludes me. I thought I was at a point where she just didn't matter to me, but I've taken a few steps backward. I know this is an area I need to work on. I truly believe it stems partially from my personality and lifelong belief in just doing the right thing and partially from the lack of closure with her. I did send her a text the day after our final D-Day to which she responded with an apology. Initially, I think I believed it meant something but now... not so much. I was driven from then on to confront her but made a choice not to based upon the circumstances (she worked with my husband) and the concern that it would not go well. I had many lengthy conversations with our therapist about the potential ramifications of confronting her and ultimately did not. I hate that I let her walk away from the damage she played a role in. I hate that I allowed her to lie to me. I hate every disgusting and disrespectful thing she did. And I hate that I'm so hateful. I have managed to work through the anger at my husband, maybe because I see him busting his ass every day to help heal the damage he caused. I still have some resentment from the way he ended it, which we've also addressed with our therapist. He was scared shitless and attempting to diffuse the situation and I need to remember where his head was and that he handled it in the way that he handled everything back then.... taking the path of least resistance. But it left me feeling like he never stood up for me. Some might say he's standing up for me now and that is true, but I feel like she got a free pass, walked away unscathed. Maybe her life is a living hell every day, but I don't see that. And without seeing it, I'm having a hard time believing it.

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    1. I really believe that cutting off the OW totally is a great place to be. It's TORTURE TO BE IGNORED. The fact she has heard nothing from you probably drives her nuts. She may be waiting for the other shoe to drop.. Make her wait let her twist in the wind. Or maybe that's just me.

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    2. Steam,
      I think you're right. Many of these women, the ones who knowingly inflict pain, are desperate to be seen, to be heard, to...matter. And when we respond as if they don't matter, it's their version of hell. The truth of it is, though, they don't matter. They main thing they brought to the affair was their willingness and their availability.

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    3. Steam and Elle, you make some great points. It occurred to me that I could turn her world upside down with one simple text, e-mail, or phone call. It's unlikely that I would do it unprovoked though because I realize that by attempting to hurt her, I could inadvertently hurt her children. I could not bear the guilt of that. But... she doesn't know that. Maybe she IS living every day waiting for the other shoe to drop. Honestly, nothing would give me greater satisfaction than for that to be true. I know I cant carry that kind of hatred and anger forever, but for now, maybe it's just what I need to feel.
      I do know that if our paths ever cross or if she ever attempts to interfere in my marriage or my family, I won't be as likely to bite my tongue.

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  47. Theresa -
    I went to my session this evening... she always asks how I "am". Well, since I knew I needed to see if there was anything to forgive the OW for...I was depressed. But I was depressed before any sessions anyway. So, I really took to heart your and Elle's insight on OW thinking or her fucked up way of thinking that this would be what ails her. So, I do choose to forgive her for being mentally ill of sorts - because that's what I truly think it is. At the same time, my H is no better. He is ALSO in the same boat as OW. I had to express my feelings which is hard to do - as to how her and H's actions made me feel and still feel. I feel sorry for her - this did NOT solve any of her problems and honestly - it has not solved ANY of my H's problems.
    My Dad is such a piece of work. Although he has been sober for some 40 years his actions and behavior is still that of an alcoholic. He is just such an ass. My mom - I am one of 4 kids. I am the only one left here close. My other siblings live out of state. My mom was raised in an alcoholic family and married one - she and my Dad divorced when I was 18 and my mom never remarried. Now - I am responsible for my Mom. It is so hard - she has so many issues - i.e. - everything is drama, or will always be about her. She does not listen - she talks. She is lonely and needs someone - but has run off a good deal of her friends. It's so hard to be around her. She is also showing signs of dementia. Which runs in her family. It's a lot to handle.
    You talk of Karma - I believe in Karma. One of the things I texted to OW the night I found out about her and my H - was....Karma is a bitch.....and it is. She will know it some day. I feel that.....I feel sorry for her. But hate her at the same time.

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    1. Anonymous 1998
      I feel your pain of dealing with a mother like yours and mine. I'm also in the hate the ow ring but I really don't hate the person just her bad disrespectful behaviors! I have some days when she makes no difference in my life and other days when I feel the rage and the need for her to hurt as bad as she made me hurt. Her karma has been very bad for her and I know that losing my h back to our marriage was the least of her pain. The loss of her son gave me a feeling of compassion I never thought I would have for her when she was still trying to break up my marriage! I really thought I would go crazy during that six months. Once the contact stopped h and I really concentrated on us and the things that make us happy. When she broke the no contact the judge imposed on April 1, with a text on August 17, I finally realized how mentally ill this person is. Like you I feel sorry for her for the choices she made and I really hope she gets her life back in some type of peace. I have heard Elle say more than once I would rather be the crazy mixed up me than either my h or the ow! For now I stay very busy continue to read this blog and I continue to try to use the advice and wait for the results. Time for us is helping as we now take time for each other. Hugs and hopefully a small bit of peace for you as well!

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    2. Theresa and 1998,
      Having grown up in an alcholic family too (hey! We should create a club! Oh wait...), one of the most challenging things for me to learn is where my responsibility begins and ends. My mom passed away after 25 years sober and she was SOBER. She worked the program. She gained so much wisdom and compassion and I miss her every day. My dad, on the other hand, still drinks though not to excess. And he's a self-absorbed, kinda weak man. It's all about him. So I've HAD to create guidelines around my interaction with him. I call every day but when he starts going down that "I'm so lonely..." road, I suggest he go visit a friend and then I say a cheery good-bye. At first, it felt horrible. I was SUCH an awful daughter, I thought. But in reality, I'm a great daughter. I call him. We visit. I just don't let him control me anymore. Not my time. Not my moods. He is where he is because of choices he makes. I have NO control over that. And -- great news! -- we're adults now so we get to have a relationship with them on OUR terms. That's where some forgiveness comes in, I think. We forgive them for not being the parent we needed and deserved. And then we give ourselves permission to take care of ourselves in the way that's healthiest for us. That is always our #1 job. And, I'll tell ya, it's liberating!

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    3. Elle -
      Your Dad is my mom...for the love of God. While I am busy concentrating on how my alcoholic father created an atmosphere of fear, loneliness, unloving, etc - my mom was checked out. She was only concerned about herself. I believe my mom did the best she could - but now I look at her choices as an adult: She is lonely, resentful, needy and the list goes on. And I, being the "let me make it all better" daughter, feels responsible for everyone's happiness. I do understand my mom did the best she could being raised by an alcoholic father and sober mom. But she never healed - she married an alcoholic and then divorced and has been single since she was 40 years old - her CHOICE.
      But I feel smothered by her need for my attention, especially now when I can barely stand to be around ANYONE. She does not know what is going on with me and my H nor does anyone in our respective families. Only my best friend knows....My H will tell no one.
      I guess this makes it all the harder. But I am sure with more help from my therapist - I will learn the tools to help me deal with my baggage - and god knows I have a shit ton of baggage. And Like Gee said below - I would really like to see some of my baggage fall away... it is heavy -so very heavy right now.

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    4. A1998,
      yes, therapy can guide you through learning how to establish boundaries. We should have learned them in childhood but with adults in our lives who clearly didn't understand boundaries themselves, we were left to figure it out ourselves. And most of us ended up having no idea where we left off and others began.
      But it's never too late to learn. And life is so much easier when we take responsibility for what is truly ours and stop trying to control what we can't. You can't make your mom happy. No matter what you do, what you say, who you are. None of us can ever make another person "happy". What we can do is treat them with honesty and respect. But that starts with treating ourselves that way.

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  48. I forgave the OW far too easily at first and I've hated myself at intervals for it. In my case I reasoned she had been lied to (he told her I was okay with it and knew about her because he'd mind-fucked himself into believing these things were true when I thought I was agreeing to a divorce!), she'd been left for dead by most of her "friends" (now I understand why), she had a horribly abused history, was a broke single mom and had mental problems...
    But most of all, I thought, it was never her responsibility to keep his pants on! She'd never made any promises to me.
    She was snatching up a handsome, well employed man who was nicer to her than anyone she'd probably ever known and was obviously on the brink of a divorce despite his insistence that he loved and wasn't leaving his wife...
    And I actually felt sorry for HER!!!
    It took me many, many months to finally get the point where I stopped and went... wait.... wtf about me? Doesn't a decent human being have an obligation to at least contact the wife when a man gives her such a potentially BS story about his frigid marriage? Isn't that a Horrible thing to do to ME? And why didn't HE see that that was a horrible thing for her to do to ME? Doesn't make her a very nice person now, does it?
    SOOO
    I would argue, don't forgive just yet. You have a right to be fing pissed off at her. And it might well be that this is healthy for you now. For me, finally getting to the angry is what finally got me looking out for myself FIRST.
    You can forgive her later.

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    1. Aelia,
      I agree. I think a kneejerk "forgiveness" because we're scared of losing our marriage, or we think it's necessary in order to not walk out the door, or because the Bible tells us so, or whatever, can get in the way of our healing. We need to tend to our wounds first. When we're bleeding all over the floor (metaphorically, I hope), our mind shouldn't be on "forgiving" one of the drivers who ran us over. First we process our pain...then we see if there's room for forgiveness.

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  49. Lynn Not So Much PainOctober 22, 2015 at 5:07 PM

    Dear 1998,
    The trauma you have been through and currently going through is too much to forgive. I think forgiveness is a process that comes long after you have time to wrap you head around und what happened to you. Not him, you. My forgiveness process didn't start until about 14 months after Dday. I went through PTSD therapy first. You can't forgive what has not had yet time to heal. You are going through a hell-of-a lot of shit right now. I do not have it in me to forgive the OW. She drove by our house today again. I do have it in my heart and to forgive my husband a little at a time. I'm almost 2 years out now. I flat out told my therapist I'm not a saint so lets don't go there right now. She also wanted me to tackle some triggers and I said I need a month please and she respected that. When she would begin to push me beyond where I was just easy to go I let her know it was too much. Then my therapist and got in a rhythm we would meet then I would practice it during the week. That seemed to work. We have been working on the absolute forgiveness for the last six months every week. There is more than just affair healing to deal with in yourself. I think your a saint for trying to work it out. The pain is horrendous and I feel it in each one of your words. I might take forgivenesses off the table and work on something else that is tearing you up. We are here and feeling your pain. You are a good enough and never doubt it

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    1. Lynn. That is some heavy duty therapy. I think you are so brave, really, for even showing up.
      My shocking forgiveness of the OW started right away as she had been duped by my own Rico suave of a husband and know she must have been FLOORED to revive the "I'm married" email he had to write as a condition of staying with me. I still hate she was with him, I hate what they did together, I don't think it would have stopped her to know the truth --because well, she's a whore. For real. She was just doing her "job". Although h deleted the account he used to contact her it would have been SO easy to find him online and contact him. She never did. For that I am grateful.

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    2. Wow Lynn, that is some hard-won healing. I've written a few times over the years about how I didn't think I'd "forgiven" my husband and that I was okay with that. I didn't think it was necessary.
      Now, however, I think I have moved beyond forgiveness. It wasn't an event or a formal declaration. I just know that I've sorta released him for those stupid horrible choices he made. It's so clear to me that he's not that guy anymore. And that he worked hard to become someone who coped differently, thought differently. He lives life with a different intention now. So yeah...forgiveness.
      As for the OW, I was able to feel compassion for her because she had such a shitty life and it was abundantly clear that much of it was shitty because of choices she'd made. But I also knew she'd come from an abusive home. Would I have made those same choices -- taken attention from men in whatever demeaning form it came in -- if I'd had her horrible father for mine? Maybe. And with that understanding, I was able to kinda release her too.

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    3. I had a similar experience with losing other emotional baggage unrelated to my husband's cheating. All my life I've suffered from imposter syndrome, a result of extreme abuse by my mother. I always felt like a fraud. Finding out my husband cheated certainly didn't help. I felt like my whole life was a lie, so of course I felt like an imposter. So many friends thought I have this great life, and it was falling to pieces behind closed doors.

      I've been doing a ton of work on myself. I longed for the day I wouldn't feel that way anymore. And then it happened and I didn't even realize it for weeks. It's weird. The concept of imposter syndrome came up in a support group I'm in, and I went to chime in that I struggle with that, until I suddenly realized, wait a minute...I haven't felt that way for a while now. It was like I reached down to pick up my baggage and suddenly realized it wasn't there anymore.

      I feel it's similar with forgiving my husband (and the OW). I feel like I'm dragging tons of luggage behind me on a big heavy cart, but every now and then, a bag falls off. I might not even notice it right away, until later down the road I realize that the load I'm pulling doesn't feel quite as heavy anymore.

      I don't know if that helps. I hope it does.

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    4. That's such a valuable metaphor, Gee. Makes total sense to me. And I'm so glad that this crap-tastic experience has led you to challenge a whole lot of unhealthy beliefs about yourself. That's what it did for me too. I think a whole lot of women suffer from imposter syndrome. I know I did/do, though its getting better all the time.

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    5. Gee -
      I cannot tell you how many times I have thought "I have fooled them all". That if everyone knew how I really feel about myself that - God, everyone would just freak. That all my words are really fake - that deep down I have zero self confidence. That it's all ONE BIG FAT LIE. My therapist brought up "imposter syndrome" because of some of my comments. I just feel like I am a good bullshitter... When people tell me that I am so strong - they are liars. When they tell me I come across confident - they are liars. Because deep down I don't feel that way about myself....YET. But I am trying. I am trying so hard to get my house together.....while working on our marriage. I want to be where you are Gee - for the first time in my life, I would love for some of my baggage to fall off my large cart.

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  50. OK, I realize I'm not even 2 months out from Dday yet - and 2 weeks from the very last Dday trickle - but is there a point where you don't think about it all the time when you're with your H? I drove 2 hours this weekend to spend some one-on-one time with my H while he's working out of town, and we had a really good time together. And yet, I still thought about it, almost the whole time. I didn't say anything to him about it because u didn't want to spoil the little time we had together, but I did tell him earlier in the day that it had been on my mind. I'm trying to be open with him but not overwhelm him. So when does that poison start to fade?
    I keep thinking of the things he said to her, and how his words of love, by their very nature, belittled and diminished OUR relationship, the relationship that, until now, I thought so special and held so sacred. And then I think of all the things that he must have said to her that I was not privy to. The hundreds of texts. The hours of conversation. He talked to her for 2 hours on MY birthday. And I feel so sick and sad.
    We are making progress, I think. He's kind of messed up emotionally too, but he keeps reassuring me and telling me he loves me. I know we are moving in a positive direction. I just get so bogged down with the emotions sometimes. I think I am mostly over the shock, but I am still in mourning.

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    1. Phoenix to be honest I'm about 2 years out and a thought although very fleeting still crosses my mind everyday. It doesn't stay there long anymore, I don't react to it anymore but it is still there. It just becomes less intense but it drove me nuts for a long time. I do tell my husband occasionally if he asks or doesn't, yes, I'm sitting here, you look at me, calm, doing whatever and go through my day but yes H I still think about it everyday. He just looks away, has his I'm sorry look, I feel guilty look and that is enough for me for him to know. (I was like hell and a hurricane to him just up to recently, if I was going to miserable and he caused it well guess what buddy so are you. He took all my rage force everyday and you all know how much rage we felt inside and I didn't give a damn)

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    2. Phoenix -
      I don't know when it stops really. I am about 3.5 months out from my DDay....but there are times when it's all I can think about. But I know that I have gone hours without thinking about it. Honestly, me and my H can be driving in the car together and I will just all of a sudden think about "something" that reminds me of OW and my H. I get quiet(er) or just look out the window because I don't want my H too see my eyes water. I think about birthdays, holidays, anniversaries (really were there ANY just for me and my H), when my kids were young and in elementary school, High School and College...and then i just want to throw up. I feel you on all your emotions.... I really do. There are things now that don't hurt as bad as they did 2 months ago etc.
      But Elle and Lynn, Steam and Theresa remind me every time - its a long process....and 2 weeks , 2 months etc is just still so raw - new, and painful. So trying to be gentle with myself and feel ALL my feelings - I'm still doing that...every day.
      Somedays I just don't think I am going to make it - and I read these blogs or I write on here and share my feelings. I don't know what I would do without all these experienced words of kindness, acceptance, and love from all these women. This is invaluable - truly.
      Good luck with your H - I think I am really too new to be giving any real sound advice. But I will say this - I am not going to make any decisions on anything until I have had more time to work on myself and our marriage. Who knows how long that will take :)

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    3. Hi Phoenix

      I have the same question - I am almost 5 months post d-day and still think about it everyday and things my H does (tenderness ect) get contaminated by the thoughts and questions that sneak up on me. Although, it is much better than it was at 2 months. I am more sad and not so fearful panicked and desperate. I hope it does go away. I really don't want to think of this with every embrace for the next 50 years.

      Love support and hope to all those here. We are not alone.

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    4. My husband hated that he knew he triggered me every time he came home, or every time he sat down next to me. I might have gone an hour or two without thinking about it, but as soon as I saw him, I was reminded all over again of what he'd done.

      I don't think there's a specific day when it stops, it just starts to happen less and less, and then, even when you are triggered, it's nowhere near as powerful as it used to be.

      I think for me it was around 9 months when I was able to stop thinking about it for significant periods of time when I was alone. Around that time, being with him still triggered me, but it wasn't as powerful as it used to be. Around the 1 year anti-versary was really bad, but then it started to fade again. I'm at 16 months out, I can honestly say that I no longer feel like every single memory is contaminated, even though he was lying to me all those years (porn addiction), and I can be with him now and not be thinking about it constantly. It comes and goes, but he rarely triggers me, or if he does, it's only for a second or two.

      I know right now hearing that it takes this long probably isn't what you want to hear. I remember in those first 6-8 months feeling utter despair when someone would tell me it would take years. I wanted to feel better right now! But it also gave me hope that I wouldn't always feel that way. It does get better.

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    5. The day will come, I promise, when this is just a memory (a shitty memory but one that doesn't come with a tightness in your stomach or a pain in your heart). It takes a really long time -- years. At two years, I felt like I was going to survive this. At three, I felt better but wondered why I wasn't "over" it. At five, I felt well and truly past this. It became part of my life, not the defining event, just part.
      You'll get there, everyone. The key, I think, is keeping your focus on your healing. Creating a life that feeds your soul. Your marriage is part of that, sure. But it's not the whole of it. You are not just half of a couple.

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  51. It improves even if only marginally. Im almost 6mo out and 3mo out from his last contact w ow and when he finally dumped what i feel is 75% or better of the long term affair until then i was consumed by obcessing unknowns, putting together a timeline that made more sense and some details to much and so i obcessed over that ... i now an not a numb zombie on auto pilot barely functioning but finding my way back ti feel pain and process this mess. Im choicing to find grace and try to work on this together. I do still think about it. But i can not ay times without crying and we still discuss it too. I know where i am staying becuz leaving would feel just as bad or worse not trying see what might have been. I know there no guarantees in life i also know life is what u make of it and im choicing to work at it each day. Time is a blessing and some days a 4 letter word. Im looking for the sparkle even if just a glimmer right now. It comes in waves but i am at a different place then those initial months but i also still have a long way to go as long as h willing i am too. This also has shown me i used to overrate or obcess about things that looking back dont really matter. Good days bad days ... one day at a time sister. Ps last year my h was w ow on my bday yep i spent alone. If i think about all these times id go mad i can think and then not bcuz it wont change anything plus men think of things differently dates times occassions are in some instances just days to them and the world to us doesnt make it right i know. My h confessed he used to cry in shower not only bcuz of his betrayal thinking of a way out but bcuz while he was out doing his thing i was here handling it all! Real life problems and to dos. 2 mo i think i was still sobbing on bathroom floor. 100% communication is key. Ur not alone. And to me after my blood sweat and tears ... leaving is not a shoot from hip deal. We are worth more then that. Im hopful for a day i dont think of it. If that is possible i don't know. I can sleeo some now and actual shower and think some .... so i guess thats improvment though i still have my moments!

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  52. I am a new poster, but not new to your stories. I have found such hope and strength in the experiences and insights that have been shared here, I'm so grateful! My husband and my dear friend began a long term emotional and adulterous affair about 5 years ago. You know the deep, dark pain that has followed. They were together for 1 1/2 years before they were caught, and both declared it was over. But it wasn't. The next two years were secretely spent still in the affair as they individually struggled about whether to go back to their heartbroken spouses and children, or to cut all ties and ride off into the sunset together. During this time, they foolishly conceived a child, because, as we all know, bringing a child into this mess will make everything so much easier. I know. Who thinks that? They were very sick in their thinking to start with, and they just kept getting more and more lost in their fantasy world. Completely oblivious to the tsunami of pain they were spreading to everyone around them. Anyway, they both finally chose to try to work things out with their families, OC is with his mother and her husband (he knows and thinks of the child as his own, good man), they have moved across the country and are doing well together. My husband, by his choice, is back with me. It was a very long time before my H heart came back to me, he is finally doing those things that let me know he is sincere, remorseful, and truly ashamed (and frightened and shocked as he looks back sees that he did what he did) about his selfishness. He has finally embraced counseling and is sifting through his early childhood abuse experience to try to heal himself, and to learn about true intimacy, etc. Did I mention this was not his first affair? He has been in emotional affairs for 25 out of 30 of our years married. This last one was by far the most deeply he has been involved, enjoying lots and lots of sex and claiming he finally found his soulmate. He is a love/sex addict. I know we can do this, repair our brokenness and rebuild better and stronger. I have never doubted we could do this, if we were both committed. So that is basically my story. Here is where I am struggling now. The depth of my pain has no words, but I am so glad to know I don't have to find them, as you all understand exactly what I am feeling. Different details to our stories, but the same pain. I have not had the rage that is often felt by betrayed spouses, just extreme, debilitating hurt. Because OW was like a little sister to me, I loved her and cared about her like a sister. (of course she was much younger, pretty young thing in a troubled marriage when my H had to go and rescue here from her troubles and be the knight on the white horse... yeah, that same woman that seems to be everywhere on these pages) . I am so broken hearted that she could do this to me, that they could do this to me, together. Against me. I have made a lot of progress toward forgiving my H, and also towards getting through the pain I feel from his utter and absolute betrayal and abandonment, but I am having a hard time forgetting about her. I have forgiven, but I am haunted by the memories and the thoughts of them together. I am trying very hard to make her irrelevant to my present life, but I can't seem to move past that part. The more I see my H work for us, the less I think about her, but the pain is still there, always tugging at me. It is really pulIing me down, and I am exhausted. Is there anyone here who can help with experience or ideas when OW was a good friend?

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    1. OMG - you are going through so much. In my situation the OW was not someone I knew, but you had two betrayals, your husband and your close friend. I'm feeling your pain. Seems to me you have two affairs to get over not one. Plus an addict to reconcile with. Don't put so much on yourself. Reading between the lines you are carrying tremendous burdens. Remind yourself this is not your fault, you didn't do all this damage. Takes as much time as you damn well need you deserve it and so much more. The amount and type of damage is equal to the amount of healing. Your damage is not a one night stand it is about as big as Catagory 5 hurricane. The inertia for you to move forward your going to need more than just you. You have all of us but get some understanding friends and experienced therapist. I don't think I could conquer this much alone.

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    2. Lili,
      I'm so sorry for all you've gone through. That's such a tough one, when you're betrayed by two people you trusted and cared about.
      It's amazing you're as functional as you are right now. Of course, you're feeling deep deep hurt. Of course it's hard to "forget" about her.
      It might help to recognize both of them as incredibly damaged people (nobody who's emotionally healthy could possibly do that to another). In other words, not people to envy in any way. And, unless she does the hard work of sorting herself out, she's likely to continue in unhealthy relationships that don't ultimately get her what she wants -- security, loyalty, love. However, that's her problem not yours.
      Yours is to continue doing what you're doing because, even if you can't see it yet, it's working. Keep the focus on you and your marriage. Take notice of the positive shifts you're seeing. Celebrate the teensy steps forward.
      And when you do find yourself thinking about her? Try and imagine the thought like a balloon into which you can stick a pin and -- pop -- away she goes to whichever crazy relationship she's involved in right now that's NOT yours.
      You'll get there, Lili. It's a long haul but you're on your way.

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  53. Hi Elle,
    DDay was just over a year ago for me, although I had my suspicions for about 10 months before. My H had an 'emotional' affair with a work colleague. A work colleague who I just knew was bad news from the moment she walked into his life. A troubled young girl with an abusive boyfriend, 25yrs myths junior.
    My H is an easy target for a sob story and so when she said she had her bf arrested my h dropped her home to 'make sure she was safe'. I told him then that I thought it was inappropriate and she should choose one of the other 1000 employees at the company to latch onto, not one who is in a superior position and this extra attention she was receiving from him could make the rest of his staff bitter. I stopped hearing about her and assumed he'd taken my advice.
    I was wrong, a few days after my birthday last year I discovered text messages from her asking about when they were going to meet up. Furious I took the phone and left, I texted her and asked if there was anything she wanted to tell me about what was going on between her and my husband. She declined to reply. I confronted my husband who told me that although nothing physical had happened that they were 'in love' with each other. Furious, I kicked him out and changed the locks. In the week he was gone she couldn't put him up because she lived with her mother and her mother wouldn't allow such a relationship to continue, so he slept in his car.
    I'm not proud to admit it but I did say he couldn't see our children and I refused to discuss them with him at all. I know he loves them and I wanted him to hurt as much as I was. I'm not sure now he came back for me at all, or if it was for his children, but he did come back, full of apologies and we talked it over.
    It was probably a lie but he told me the ow refused to transfer so she wasn't working with him and threatened to expose him as a pervert to the upper management. Him leaving was not a choice either, we'd have been left unable to pay our mortgage, so I've had to accept that they work together still. I said no contact outside of work and he replaced his cell number and did not give it to her. Just over a year down and I felt relaxed enough to start reusing the joint account and I'd stopped mentioning her.
    Last week I found the secret cell phone. Only one number on it, the ow. I didn't even look into it before I smashed it into tiny pieces and threw them at him. His excuse was she talked him into it because it had been necessary for her to contact him regarding work. I asked him how many other staff members had a contact number for him, he said one other. What so the rest of his team don't need to contact him outside of work but she does?
    I wonder what hold she has over my h to be able to convince him to go against my wishes? If I didn't have 3 children with this man I wouldn't be in this position now, I would have been gone at the first sign. I know I'm worth more than this crap he has bought on me. I've stared smoking and drinking. I am trying so hard to hold it together but inside I want to humiliate them both. I want to physically hurt them both. She is as guilty as he is, she knew he was married with three young children. She gets to go home and not worry about any of this, why should she get to be free from pain? I've never confronted her, other than that one text, because if he lost his job my children would lose their home. It clearly doesn't matter to her what happens to my babies, she's as selfish as my h is. I can't afford the family home without him else I'd have already kicked his backside out for good. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place and I don't know what to do.
    Today he sent me flowers, chocolate and wine. With a card saying how sorry he is but he took his clothes yesterday and I haven't seen him since. He says he wants to talk but I just want to smash him in the head, repeatedly, and her too.
    :(

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  54. Phoenix,
    I feel every word you say like mine. I am about to reach 3 months post D-Day and think about it everyday, a lot. I keep on thinking when I will be over this. Knowing it takes years is so hard to cope with. I wish I could just forget everything and stop having all these sad feelings.
    I guess we just have to keep going day by day, little steps at a time.

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    1. Butterfly,
      A lot of us gasp when we first hear about the "years" prediction for healing from this. But it's important to note that we don't feel horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible for years and then, like magic, suddenly realize we're feeling pretty good at five years out. Rather it improves incrementally. Sometimes we feel as if nothing is changing and then, suddenly, we're galloping toward happiness, and then we slip back and so on. I had many many days and weeks where things felt quite good during those years. But it took me that long to feel well and truly DONE with it. Clear-headed. Able to handle triggers (which happened far less frequently) fairly easily.
      So don't think it's three to five years of total misery.

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  55. I'm 16 months out, and while I know I'm not done with this, I can tell you that it is not total shit from D-day until the day you feel done with it years down the road. (I'm still waiting for that day when I feel like I'm really truly over it, but I'm holding on to the assurance from those who have travelled this road before me that it's coming.) When I read that it takes years when I was just days out from D-day, I thought there's no way I could hang on that long. I didn't feel like I could bear one more day, one more hour, sometimes even one more minute, of the pain I was feeling. How could I do this for years?!

    But you don't feel that way constantly, even if sometimes it feels like it. I still have my bad days, I still sometimes "crash", but it's nowhere near the level of despair I felt in the beginning.

    Something that has helped me: I keep a jar on my nightstand. Every time something good happens, I write it on a slip of paper and put it in the jar. When I have a bad day, I open it up and look through it to remind me of how far I've come. If I can come this far, then I can keep going.

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    1. That's such a great idea, Gee. I've heard of people doing it over a year and then, on New Year's Eve, revisiting those moments. But to do it as a way to remind yourself that you've had happy moments during a time when that's hard to believe would be so powerful. Thanks for the great idea.

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  56. Thank you Elle and Gee, I really needed some reasuring words today.
    I think the jar is a great idea Gee. Thanks for sharing it.

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  57. I feel so lonely and hopeless today. It is the night 3 months ago I found out about his affair with a coworker, that had been going on for over a year and a half. They had so much sex and he talked to her about sex so openly that it makes me sick. No, it makes me envious, because for a long time I had been feeling totally neglected sexually. It hurts because all that sexual attention should have been mine.
    It is already hard enough to deal with the affair. To try to grieve and get past it. I need him to be there for me, to support me. But instead of working on healing my wounds, and feeling supported, now I have to deal with his issues.
    Our therapyst told me that he has an avoidant attachment style. I had never heard about attactment styles in my life, would have been very helpful before his affair!
    I am reading all I can about it, and I am finding my marriage described in so many articles. Things I couldn´t make sense of before all of a sudden make total sense to me. The lack of sexual desire for me, the frustration on his face when I asked him to do house chores, the coldness, etc. After D-Day he started communicating his feelings for the first time, and that has helped somewhat at the beginning; but now I feel stuck because all the rest is the same, he acts the same. When I am distressed, sad and crying, he doesn´t come to soothe me, he just ends up withdrawing. And it hurts, because I need him to be there for me. But instead here I am trying to figure out how to help him to move to a more secure attachment. Point is, he doesn´t know yet about avoidant attachment style. The therapist hasn´t yet talked about it with him, probably trying to make him feel more secure in the therapy before addressing the issue. But it hurts to see him push me away and think negative of everything I say or do.
    I feel hopeless. I was betrayed, feel hurt like I thought I never could be hurt, and instead of having the support I need to heal, here I am, trying to deal with the issues of the person who betrayed me. Because he is so insecure, it was easier to have sex with another W than to sit down and talk to me about his resentments. As if that would fix our problems!!
    I am not sure we are going to make it. If he doesn´t realize how he reacts towards me, it doesn´t really matter what I do, how much I read about it, how I change to adapt to his needs, or how much I put into it; it will never work for us. He will always keep me at a distance, and I can´t live with that anymore, not after his betrayal. I want more of my marriage now.

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    1. Butterfly
      I read your post and something you wrote about avoidant attachment style! I did research and found several aha moments of new understanding on how my h was able to have the affair and still look me in the eyes on weekends and make love to me and then drive back up to be with her. He has always been that personality type but it had worked for us in our marriage because I am the opposite personality type and have enough emotions for both of us! My world was shattered by the ow describing how perfect they matched and for how long! This was all fantasy on her part. She fell in love with him but all he wanted was the sex. Neither one of them were living in the truth! I have been given a new understanding of this due to your post! Now I can't tell you what will work for you and your h but I can tell you that you have to take care of you first and he has to work on himself! Three months from dday I wa still crying my eyes out and barely able to think. I have slowly learning about these things and this blog always gives me more power to get through the day not only because of Elle's posts but by people like you who share what you are learning and how you use what you learn here! Thank you Butterfly for posting your thoughts! Hugs to you!

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    2. Theresa I am so glad I could help, even if it is only by sharing my sad story. The best articles I have read on avoidant attachment are from Stan Tatkin. You can google him, there are several good articles and one article that talks about affairs with avoidant and anxious attachments. I really learned a lot from them.

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  58. Butterfly
    The strongest words written with the conviction of concrete is "I want more of my marriage now." Remember those words, they come from strength. Don't expect anything less, don't settle but give him time to get where you are. Early on my therapist said on an emotional maturity scale you are an 8 and he is a 2. I had to give him time to catch up. It was extremely hard and I mean rough but finally he is getting there after 23 months and for me it was worth it, although I certainly didn't agree it was at the time. At least your therapist has a direction for him. I encourage you to sit back and see how much he wants you by working hard to give you what your marriage needs. Either he is going to meet your expectations or your exit door. Your choice. You are strong either way.

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    1. I remember hearing a therapist say on a TV show that it's okay to want your marriage to be better. That it doesn't have to be horrible to want it to be better. And though I would argue betrayal is absolutely horrible, Lynn is absolutely right that, after all that, we absolutely have a right to insist that it's not enough to get it back to where it was...we want it better than that. We deserve better than that. But Lynn is also right that it takes time for someone who's never really known better to learn how to achieve that.

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    2. Lynn, I am so happy that your H has learned so much about himself to meet what your marriage needs. It also gives me hope. I just don´t know how much time is too much or too litlle to wait until my H reaches that point, or if he will be able to ever get there. How did your H get to that point, through therapy? My H doesn´t even realize yet that he is pushing me away all the time.
      I don´t really feel strong, I feel anything but strong. I am in a dark place, with the constant reminder of his affair in my mind. But I do know, as Elle says, I don´t want the marriage I had, because it created the opportunity for an affair. I want better than that. I just really don´t know if I will have the patience and the courage to cope with the pain for as long as it takes.

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  59. I can't sleep...I just can't. I am in my H's hometown helping take care of his mom and dad while he is away on business. I love my H's parents and would do anything for them. This is the first time I have been back since DDay. Prior to that - I was here pretty steadily since Thanksgiving 2014 helping H's mom through a cancer diagnosis and chemo that finally ended back at the beginning of June. The OW moved to my H's home town in 2005 through 2010 (when the skank moved back to where we live now) for an alleged job promotion. Unbeknownst to me, H carried on his relationship with OW here...when he was supposedly visiting his parents and helping out .... But managed to make time for that skank who lived not 10 damn minutes away from him parents.
    For God's sake - isn't anything ours?? I mean why the hell did he have to fuck her where we have great memories...with our kids, us and his family? It feels like nothing is ours anymore. Nothing. Because he had to "do" her everywhere. I hate him for that. I really do. He says this is wrong - our memories are not ruined. Well of course his memories aren't ruined!
    Since we are both traveling this week - there will be no counseling....God I need it.
    My H asked me last night when we were "talking", except this really means me sharing my fears and sadness...which morphs into anger - if I need to go TALK to someone...because he felt that I was spinning things in my head. He is such an asshole. You know what would really help - if he would just quit leaving out important things, or quit trying to act like he doesn't remember. I am not asking any details - it's all about emotion. H has been so busy for the past 18 years controlling all his emotions and avoiding anything that resembles "difficult" that he cannot face me when I am in pain. H actually told me this past weekend that I stare at him with a "look" on my face. This isn't all that bad - #1 he is actually looking at me when I talk and #2 paying attention to my emotions. I know he is trying - but sometimes its just not enough for me.
    Lynn - I actually start my job on the 16th .... I am excited and scared all at the same time. My H is scared to death.... good.
    I am looking at your comment about .... 23 months - that just feels like a lifetime right now. Just so hard - so very hard.

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    1. 1998,
      Yes it is hard. Harder than any of us could have imagined.
      What you can't yet see is that you're getting through it. Not easily, perhaps. But still.
      I'm glad you're angry because that means you're directing the blame where it should be, on him. The anger will usually burn itself out. I remember thinking that all memories were "ruined" but now I'm able to see that what was ours is still ours. Or rather, what's yours is still yours. Nobody's memories are the same. We can never really know what's in another's head. But we can trust that our memories are always ours. Might not make sense to you now, but it will.
      And yes, someone who has spent a lifetime avoiding strong emotions in others is going to have a hell of a time dealing with this. Give him time to adjust to this new reality. It's like learning a new language.

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    2. 1998,
      I read in one of the many articles that have gotten to my hands, that people that avoid difficult emotional situations, as my H also does, don´t actually remember many of the emotional details of the past. It has given me a different perspective, since I too kept on thinking he was just avoiding the questions when he said he couldn´t remember many of the things that I asked him. But now I think because it is so hard for them to cope with feelings, anything that has to do with it is just erased from their memory.

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    3. Elle -
      I do want to give H time....I am trying to give him time. But I feel that I have been used for 18 of our 27 years marriage. Time....HE needs more time, HE needs compassion, HE needs to be handled with "kid gloves", HE needs this, HE needs that! I am so sick of trying to see anything from that standpoint! Whether or not my catching H made him end things with OW or whether she kicked him to the curb, or maybe they are still talking, texting, sexting etc....I can't believe a damn thing he says right now. My gut tells me not to trust him when it comes to his denial of feelings for OW .... He is still in self preservation mode. I am angry at him...but I am putting myself out there and it scares the shit out of me.... because what if he is so weak he goes back?? What the hell am I gonna do? I am afraid to put myself in a position to feel the pain and anguish that made me want to go to sleep and never wake up. I can't go back there again. Baby steps are hard - I want to see him put himself out there for me - but of course, he is guarded, shows little emotion -
      Butterfly - I hadn't thought about how he has managed to cope with his feelings during his affair with OW and still trying to keep me around but yet clueless.. It is killing me - that there is something so wrong with him, that he won't want to figure out how to deal .... so we can have the marriage we both discuss. I am hanging in there - I am going to help myself .... I want to help me and it's super hard ... emotionally draining. This all has to be a dream right? I am going to wake up and it's all going to be alright and we will live happily ever after. NOT.

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    4. 1998,
      I hope you will get help for yourself. I know how excruciating this is. And I know how terrifying it is to make yourself vulnerable only to discover more lies. There's nothing wrong with biding your time. You can decide yourself when and if to recommit to your marriage based on whether or not you see the changes you need to see in him. If you're not seeing someone committed to creating change in himself then there's not much point in carrying on in the marriage. Only when he's truly remorseful for what he's done and focussed on learning how to ensure he never does it again should you consider giving him that second chance. The ball's in your court. You get to decide. That said, you can't control him. He'll either realize what he's about to lose and get his head out of his ass or he'll not. For some guys, who are really damaged themselves, the fear of making themselves vulnerable is simply more than they can allow themselves to do. They'll settle for relationships that lack depth and true commitment in order to spare themselves the fear of being vulnerable and truly seen. Remains to be seen which type of guy your husband is.
      In the meantime, however, stay focussed on you and working through your own grief and pain. And please know that no matter what ultimately happens, you will be okay because you'll have truly dealt with all this. Doesn't mean it won't hurt. It just means it won't rule the rest of your life.

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    5. 1998- I understand so much of your situation. The anger- hating to hear about how he was in shock when the affair was discovered. I mean REALLY?!! I need to be understanding of the fact that he was in shock when he knew what was happening all along! But me being in shock- that's not as important?! He needs to coddled and handled gently?!!!

      I too am dealing with a sick parent and of course he brought all her Christmas gifts in our hometown - and then took her away to a lodge in the same place we celebrated our third anniversary with our baby daughter- everything feels tainted. He took her to restaurants we ate at, the movie theater, the mall. He actually took her on a date in the new town we moved to before he ever took me- because you know it takes time to find a babysitter in a new town. With her- he had a built in baby sitter with me- He spent our 10th anniversary texting her- angry that I wasn't willing to leave my dad who was in the hospital to go away with him! it all hurts. It's all unfair. It all feels like a pile of shit thrown on you.

      But 9 months later I can tell you that the triggers, while they still sting, do not send you reeling like they did in the beginning. It's definitly hard to trust again but I look at what's he's doing day in and out to show that he wants to change and is working hard.

      I look at what he's doing now to show me that he loves me. And I'm trying to place more value on that instead of on what he did with her. I'm being honest with him about my feelings and trying to listen to his feelings- in the beggining I argued away every thing he shared and said they were wrong but now I try to figure out what was behind him feeling that way.? What stories was he telling himself to justify his affair and how do we rewrite those narratives now?

      It's not easy but while this betrayal was the last thing I ever expected from my spouse andade me question everything about him, I feel like I do know the man he is and I love him and know that he can change.

      He has hurt and disappointed so many people and is finally seeing that while he had his little compartments, separating the affair from his marriage and family, he was actually hurting us deeply. We are the ones who are truly paying- I paid during and after the affair. He's robbed me, his elderly parents, and our young children of peace and security. That's a lot to have to live with and he needs to do that. Regardless of all his prior hardwork and achievements he has disappointed all of us by his poor, selfish choices but he's detetmined to get through the other side of this and I'm determined to get there too. Sometimes were able to help each other but in the beggining things are so raw that all we could really focus on was ourselves. It's hard, it's long - but you're doing it and every now and then you'll be able to see past the pain to what he's doing and appreciate those things as well.

      We're on the same journey- just different shitty paths. there's so many of us and we're here for you. Even when you're feeling like you're falling apart- I promise you that you have never been stronger!!

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  60. I found this site while on my endless search for some kind of comfort or validation that is always just out of reach. I think what pulled me in was a particular line about women being there for each other...and I need some friends.
    I have never been able to find any real peace about what I've gone through...here's my story...
    I was married at 23, and one month before my 2nd anniversary I found out he was cheating. All I really remember is feeling so hurt and then like my insides had been scooped out and I was hollow, void of emotion, numb. I filed for divorce right away and that was that.
    At 29 I married again and within 4 years we had 2 children and soon after that adopted a third child who needed a home. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years. My husband was extremely arrogant and controlling, but I thought that was life. I found out quite by accident shortlyafter our 13th anniversary that he had been having an affair. I know I was in shock and he made me feel like I deserved it and I was not a very good wife. I wanted to try to work on the marriage because of the kids. He said fine, but he wasnt going to give the OW up. We went to counseling and he loved it when all the attention was on me and my issues. But the day the counselor pointed out his, he flew into a rage and never went back. I continued to see the counselor and she did wonders letting me find that I deserved better. I got the courage to get some job skills, got a job and filed for divorce.
    So at 45, I met the man I who is my best friend. I had never connected or felt so free and happy with anyone. We were married in May 2012 and all was great! He began to have some ED issues, but it was ok. March 2013 was the last time we were intimate. I got a little frustrated over the summer and asked him to see a doctor. He did and nothing really changed. Then in February 2014 he was taken to hospital for suicide attempt. After nursing him back to relative health, I found out that, yes, he had been having an affair for a few weeks in January and the OW was threatening him if he broke off with her, thus his suicidal thoughts. She was so psycho that we actually had to get police involvement. She also continued to harrass me for 11 months. This affair devastated me, although you'd think I'd be a pro at this by now. Very few people know about this. I told a few friends and they have sort of been distant. I have not told my parents because they were so happy for me and worried so much about me in my previous marriage. My kids, who are teenagers now also do not know. Now, in his defense, he has been very transparent since this happened and is very open about his whereabouts, phone, etc. My problem is that we have had sex ONCE since then, which means no sex for 20 months. I'm going to be 50 in 2 months, and I feel way too young to give up on intimacy now. My heart still aches that I am a 3 time loser at love. I am loyal to a fault and could not imagine putting anyone through this agony...why is it so easy for them to cast me aside and put me through it? I am still trying to put my self worth back together, and I am truly ashamed and embarrassed of my story, but it helps to tell it...and, maybe cry a little...again...Thanks for letting me tell it.

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    1. Blinders,
      I wish I had an easy answer as to how people have the ability to do this to loyal spouses. I think it's different in each situation and sometimes, it's just a combination of things. None of them are reasonable answers for betraying and hurting another person. And the fact that this had happened to you more than once doesn't speak to your value when it comes to love. You were loyal. Don't blame yourself for that. It took me recognizing what it was within my husband that allowed him to make such selfish choices to help me realize how little his affair actually had to do with me.
      I'm sorry for what you are going through. You will find a lot of wisdom and support on this blog.

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    2. Blinders,
      I'm so sorry for all you've gone through. But please, I want you to stop this internal dialogue in your head about the failings of your husbands. I'm glad you found this site because the isolation of not talking to others about this can be awful. BUT...I want you to be aware of what you're telling yourself. You have not been "cast away". Your husband made a horrible choice to go outside your marriage but that had nothing to do with you and everything to do with him. You seem to be subscribing to a belief that you are not worth being loyal to. That is patently untrue. You have a pattern of picking men who clearly have issues...but that doesn't mean YOU are not worthy. It means that they have issues. And perhaps one of your tasks now is to sort through, with the help of a therapist, why you have selected men with issues. That's not the same as blaming yourself for their cheating. It's simply about figuring out what red flags you're ignoring or unaware of.
      Blinders, this is not YOUR shame. So many of us have been cheated on. Re. his sexual issues: what is being done to address those? Is it medical? Emotional? I think it's reasonable to expect him to address whatever the problem is so that you can rebuild an intimate relationship. But I would also encourage you to seek help for processing the shame and embarrassment you still feel.

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  61. Had a bit of an "aha!" moment yesterday. My husband mentioned to me that when I initiate sex, it usually goes great, but if he initiates, 90% of the time it ends up in a fight. I was trying to figure out why that was, because it wasn't something I was doing consciously. But I realized that I initiate sex usually when I'm feeling fairly secure, whereas I don't when I'm more down, and that's when he initiates. So of course if he's initiating when I'm already upset, it's more likely to end in a fight.

    But the biggest thing I realized is that I had this, "Oh, NOW you're initiating? After nearly 13 years of me begging you to have sex with me? NOW, after you nearly ruined our lives by taking it outside of our marriage, now you think you have the right to pursue me sexually? Too little too late, buster!" I hadn't even realized that was how I was feeling because it was mostly subconscious.

    Because of his porn addiction, we had sexual anorexia in our marriage. It was horrible. I'm a woman with a very high sex drive, I spent so many years feeling utterly wasted on him, because if I left it up to him, we'd rarely have sex. He poured 99% of his sexual energies into porn and left virtually nothing for me. The fact that he felt guilty about it just made it even more difficult for him to be with me.

    I had hoped I was past it, but there's still bitterness there on my part. He wasted almost 13 years of my life using porn, leaving me sexually starved and feeling like I must be completely unattractive because I couldn't get my husband interested in me. And then now, after he took it out of the virtual world and made it a thousand times worse by cheating with a real woman, now he chases after me. I think I finally feel safe enough to be angry about it. Since sex had been becoming rarer and rarer before D-day, I was never safe to express these feelings on the rare occasion he did approach me for sex. I kept my anger inside because I didn't want to miss out on sex that night. But now I can.

    Knowing is half the battle, right?

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    1. Gee,
      Yes, knowing is half the battle. And when we know better, we do better. :)

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  62. Hooray for AHA moments! I have found with my AHA moments that once something is no longer unconscious, I feel like I've been gifted with a choice that I didn't have before.

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  63. Oh Gee, I understand you so well. It is horrible to feel sexually starved. I also have a high sex drive and feel that H has taken from me 10 years of my sexual life, and trashed it all with the OW in one year and a half. He had more sex with her in one year than with me in the last five years of our marriage. He has never had that much sex with me ever, not even at the beginning of our relationship. And it hurs because I craved it so much, and meantime he was getting it and sharing it with someone else.
    I to feel bitterness, he took something from me and gave it to someone else. And I will never get those years back. And I am not sure where we stand now with sex. The first couple of weeks after D-Day we had histerical bonding, couldn´t take our hands off each other, but just as fast as it came it left. So I am not really sure where we stand now. I guess I will need more time to figure it out.

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    1. Sometimes it feels like the ultimate insult. He starves me sexually for our entire marriage, keeping everything for himself via porn, and then to top it off, he has the gall to cheat on ME? He keeps saying he can't believe I didn't cheat on him, that he would have deserved it if I had. But that's not who I am. I didn't just want sex. I wanted sex with HIM.

      Le sigh. Hysterical bonding can really throw you for a loop. Our sex life went through the roof, and my husband thought that meant everything was okay. He couldn't understand how we could have such great sex and I could still be screaming and/or crying every day. In some twisted way, I almost felt like I was rewarding him for cheating on me. After everything he did, he gets to have the best sex of his life (his words) in the wake of it? I think our hysterical bonding phase lasted about 4 months. We managed to settle into a normal amount since, but I'm happy to say it's way more than pre D-day.

      I think you said elsewhere that you're at about three months out? It will definitely take time. At three months I was still battling with myself every day not to commit suicide, or perhaps pack up my car and drive off and never return.

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    2. I forgot to add in my previous comment, but the bitterness has faded a lot for me. I think there is a part of me that will probably always feel bitter about it. I can still work myself up into a froth again about it without a lot of effort, but like the pain, it's fading as I heal.

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    3. I agree Gee, any situation that feels the same, it doesn't take much for me to "get into a stir" as we say in the south. I have not overcome this. We are two years out I starved my husband sexually but NOW since the worse has already happened so what, I let it all hang out and then some. Now he is as fat as a pig.

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    4. Lynn less pain
      I too find it hilarious that during my h affair time he was trim and fit, gave the ow the 'most passionate sex' she ever had (by the way our sex life never changed during this time) but once the affair ended he has gained every pound I lost! He finally changed his gym membership to one close to our house and we work out together! However, he still travels for work and his food choices are terrible! He hates when I tell him it's the food he eats rather than the exercise that is his problem! I'm having more issues with my 78 year old mother than him at the moment so for that I'm looking at her as my new challenge! Hugs to all of us ladies in this ever teetering group!

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    5. Theresa what I meant was I sex starved him because he was such a jerk in many ways but NOW he is not sex starved because of his changes therefore as fat as a sex piggy can be. Please excuse failed attempt at humor. I really learned a lot about how my husband viewed sex last week. I was very surprised and it surprised him too after it came out of his mouth.

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    6. Theresa,
      A few things in your post struck a chord with me. First, the weight loss! My h lost about 30 lbs over the course of the affair, all of which he has gained back. I thought he had been making a conscious effort to lose the weight... Turns out it was stress. I guess living a double life messes with your appetite.
      You also commented about him giving the OW "the most passionate sex she ever had". I was curious if these were her words. On D-Day in the midst of my raging I question my h and was told his OW had told him he was "the best she ever had". Now that all the details are out, I am perplexed by this. They only had sex in the backseat of his truck in public parking lots and all but once in the middle of the day. Best she ever had? Seriously? How about having a little self respect and at least demanding a cheap hotel room? Almost makes me feel bad for her. Just another thing that makes me realize how deluded people involved in affairs can be.

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    7. Dandilion
      You are right the words ' most passionate sex' were hers and used in the final desparate texts to both humiliate my h and place as much doubt and mistrust between us! These and a few others were what led to a minor set back over the weekend but this past week my questions were satisfied and peace is restored! At least until a new trigger hits me up side the head! Lol I know her words mean nothing logically but the emotional me hears her reminder that she was special and the sex was great. Sorry but h shared his ED was worse due to guilt shame ect. The Viagra she thought was just for her was already being used by my h with me and bless his heart it doesn't always work as well as he would like. I'm back to a good place today!

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  64. Butterfly. Historical bonding was amazing We too couldn't take our hands off each other. Now I'm not enjoying sex much. I feel that I have shut down and my feelings are numb. My sadness is so deep.
    We always had a heathy sex life. I'm not shy. Did the toys and even happy to do porn together to spice things up. We've been together 35 years.
    But now I won't do the porn or even send him sexy pictures of myself. I feel he lost those privileges.
    I still know I have not had tthe truth and would love him to sit down and say this is what I felt. This is what we done in the 2 hotel rooms. But I know that will never come. That hurts. I know that they didn't have sex cos he has ED and uses Viagra. But I don't believe they didn't even touch the bed! Which is he's story
    He's good at saying the right thing. She could have been anyone. I didn't fancy her. I liked her and was probably flattered that a women 10 years younger wanted me. He was 59 at the time.
    The never knowing what he really feels for her, she is also married and would not leave her comfortable life style to be with a man that's nearly bankrupt hurts
    Hurt and jealousy when will you go away.

    Also I'm still not working and don't know what I want or in what direction my life should be heading.
    Im scared of life. Anyone that have come into it have hurt me and I sick of game playing people
    I just want to live without hurt.

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  65. Yesterday was the first day I did not cry since August 1st.
    Today I am back to my crying self.

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  66. I can relate to numbness though my story is a quite different...

    My numbness was a part of what deteriorated our relationship before the shitfest. I only just realized that the heartbreak of feeling like he'd rather spend his time with out with friends/playing video games/at the gym/anything more fun than spending time with me caused me to go numb.

    He however thought what he was doing was perfectly acceptable and he still expected adoration and great sex. He was upset with me for his fear of abandonment and deep insecurity that he hid from me but blamed on me so he felt the way he treated me was just a response to the way I treated him. I didn't know what his problem was because he hid it in part to avoid conflict. I eventually decided he wanted me as a housekeeper without actually loving me. It broke my heart to the point it went numb.

    Numbness, for me, had a pile of devastating side effects. I was physically exhausted and needed hours of quiet time by myself to "relax" off the tension of a normal day, I didn't have friends, didn't connect with people at all really, didn't feel I could talk to him because he didn't care, and sex was not on my agenda for months at a time. I had basically no desire for him.

    This went on for years. I asked him for affection and attention and to participate in our lives together. He asked me for sex. I couldn't give him what he wanted -- he wanted me wet without a warmup - just from seeing him! And he refused to believe less than that was normal or healthy. I asked for him to warm me up but that wasn't what he wanted. So we got stuck.

    Eventually he decided I was physically broken and we had a conversation which I thought was him asking for a divorce and he thought was me giving him permission to keep me as a wife while he fucked a friend! Serious communication issues here LOL Of course, said "friend" fell in love with him and he told her he loved but told me that he only said it because he felt like he was "taking from her" without giving anything back and that he really loved me!

    All along he was trying to "Save" our relationship by taking his "need" which I couldn't fulfill outside of it. Never did occur to him that he might have solved the problem by taking me out for dinner once in a while..................

    So, numbness, it's a m*therf*cker. But I've been chewing at it for a while and I think what cracks it open is... love. Surround yourself, if you have them, with people who genuinely love and care about you. If you don't have these people -- like I didn't -- go out and get some!!! If you're a caring enough person to put up with all this sh*t from a man, you are exceptionally valuable friend material! Get yourself back out having fun with people who love you.

    And sponge up whatever love that man has now figured out he needs to be giving you instead of someone else =D

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    1. Aelia
      The numbness you feel and the other emotions you thought belonged to you only are shared by many of us! My h still can't understand why his ow telling me their 'truths' and delaying telling me a year later his real truth of the affair hurt my heart more than the fact that he had 'sex' with another woman. His emotional connection to this person hurt me so bad because he has always been an emotional unconnected personality from the beginning of our marriage! I was able to cope then because I filled those gaps with plenty of emotion for our two children! My h started his affair due to his need to find his own midlife sexual self! Sounds crazy but everything about his choices then were selfish and not about us! He now, 18 months since the physical affair ended, thinks I should as he is able to let it all go and just live in now and what he is doing to prove his honesty love loyalty what have you! I'm still dealing with bouts of self esteem and at times just trying to make sense of what Elle has taught me is a ' senseless' act on his part! Hugs to you!

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    2. Sister, is your husband my husband's twin? Reading your story is like reading my story. Communication is essential but in my house, both my spouse and I failed the course. Two years of therapy and its improved but because we are who we are, it will never be the Dr. Phil show under my roof.

      I don't know your age. I've got 45 years in my relationship and decided to work on the marriage despite his choices. My choice: I don't desire to take on some other old bastard's issues at this stage of life.

      What I want to verbalize is: The man I married is still the man I married. His core is the same, just a different stage of life. The advice my 62 year old self would give my 40 year old self is LIFE IS SHORT. Spend it with someone whom cares, adores you, and encourages you to see your VALUE, not tear it down.

      Narcissistic personality's, even borderline, will steal your life force. I learned to not be afraid to take care of my self, but he will never be able to give - to anyone - the emotional connection a healthy relationship needs for success. Numbness is a survival tool. Don't let it become your life style. I still stand in the shower and cry. Why can't he speak to me with the kindness and compassion he gives his dog? Because he loves the dog. He 'settled' with me.

      Don't be me. Be HAPPY!

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    3. Aelia,
      You are absolutely right. The best treatment for numbness is love. And while it's important to surround yourself with those who love you, I think it's more important to really learn to love yourself. I think the numbness dissipates when we're able to truly make ourselves vulnerable. And I think the only way we can show our vulnerability is to recognize that we are lovable NO MATTER WHAT. We are worthy of love and belonging. And when we truly believe that, we crack that armour around our heart and begin to actually feel again.
      Anonymous, I'm sorry for all the pain you've endured in your marriage. I hope things do improve for you. I hope you can trade numbness for vulnerability and really live your life, regardless of your husband or no husband.

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  67. Question about wedding rings.... Can you bear to wear it?? For months putting it on made me nauseous, now it causes an aching in my heart. Basically I haven't worn my rings for 5 months. We are trying to work things out and making some progress.... I want to wear them,but it hurts..... I would appreciate and thoughts or experience from others.

    Love to all

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    1. Becky,
      You might want to check out this post: http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2009/12/what-to-do-with-wedding-ring.html
      I haven't worn my wedding ring since D-Day #2. I do wear my mother's wedding band (which I put on after she died and, since she was smaller than I, have never been able to remove). With years behind me, I now feel like it's just a ring. The commitment is in the hours/days/weeks of time and trust and honesty we've put in since.

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    2. Becky,
      We replaced my husband's shortly after D-Day because i couldn't stand the thought that he never had the courtesy to remove it when he was screwing her. It was just too much. I took mine off shortly thereafter and began wearing my mom's wedding band which I had her diamond set on. I had been wearing that ring on my right hand all the time since shortly after her death anyway. My plan is to take all the rings and have something completely new made from all of them.
      For me, there is something about getting rid of anything that reminds me of the affair. I threw away the pajamas I was wearing on D-Day. I've burned his old underwear in the firepit, thrown away clothes that I knew she touched. His truck is the next thing to go, but it's a more costly replacement. ;-)
      Sorry, I digressed. The wedding rings are hard. I know that when my husband and I got engaged and on our wedding day, he never intended to betray me. It wasn't as if he was standing before our family and friends saying his vows and thinking in the back of his head that he would have an affair 12 years down the road. But for me, it's just a little too much to wear them as they were. So eventually, we'll take them and make something new of them. That seems to be what I'm doing a lot of these days, taking the stuff that's got bad memories and making something new of it.

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  68. Becky
    My h lost his first ring the same year we were married. When he graduated college and began his electrical engineer career, he had a replacement ring that almost tore his finger off while he was working on a sandpit at my child care center. The ring for the most part lived in his pocket or on our dresser as he became more involved in having to work in 'non jewelry' areas of the plant. Fast forward 30 years and within two months he has a new ring that he hasn't taken off since. One of the things ow screamed at him was wear your ring if you really want to be married! If you had one on the night we met, I probably would never looked at you twice! This doesn't mean he wouldn't have had an affair, he was looking to find that trouble. His finger is now almost a year later somewhat smaller so he has to work not to lose it. He learned the hard way how important his ring is! Now my rings are a different matter! I was married to him 8 years before he afforded the diamond of my dreams and 5 years more when he added the ring guard that I helped pick out so I earned those rocks and those were the best years of our marriage! Following those were very busy raising teenagers and both of us working our careers. So for me these are mine! I hope this helps!

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  69. Rings were hugely important to me. I had some magical notion that it would mark him as mine.

    He told me at one point that he'd taken his ring off because she accidentally touched it and he was upset about that. This was supposed to be proof I think that it meant so very much to him LOL How f*ed up is that? Your d*ck is in her, you think that's okay but you're flipping out because she touched your wedding ring? I told him he could give it back to me then. I was numb and hysterical to the point that I was laughing at him when he got a terrified look on his face and asked me not to take it back.

    He tried to wear it for a while but I eventually told him it upset me and he's left it off for good. I took mine on and off in the beginning but I hated it whenever it was on. I kept wanting to throw it out the car window on the highway but thought I might regret it. It's off for good now.

    Even the thought of rings makes me somewhat sick and angry a year later. He hates not having rings and asks fairly regularly if we can get replacements yet. I just think... why? It didn't do me any good the first time.

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  70. I am ready to quit. H has taken the victim road. He says his needs and feelings are always second in the relationship. That I always put myself first. WTF!! So when I ask, what do you need to feel your feelings are important? His answer is "love me the way I am". What is that supposed to mean? Because all I can see right now is that whatever I do, he finds fault in. If one day I don´t ask him how he is feeling, he says I don´t care about his feelings. If I ask him how he Is feeling, he says he feels evaluated and doesn´t know what the right answer is. If I make plans with my friends or my sisters (right after D-Day I planned several trips with the people that were there supporting me in my grief), he says I am not taking into consideration how he feels about that. If I ask him what he wants to do the weekend, he doesn´t know what he wants, but if I make plans for us then I am forcing him to do something he doesn´t want. Really, WTF!!
    And to top it all, because he is feeling sad, he doesn´t feel like having sex with me. After all the sex he had with the OW; now he is sad and back to sex starving me again. And when I adressed the issue, he told me I don´t care about his feelings!!! Uggggg!
    Really ready to quit.

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    1. Butterfly,
      I don't blame you. He's behaving like a child with absolutely no regard for the damage he's caused. Is he taking any responsibility for the choice he made? How does he propose you rebuild a marriage, with the exception of you being a mind-reader for his feelings? Where is the healthy communication?
      Butterfly, you get to decide what happens going forward. If you're done, then you're done. You can't do this yourself. He needs to be willing to do some really hard, really uncomfortable work around what happened. If he can't or won't, then rebuilding a healthy relationship is impossible.

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    2. Butterfly
      I hear your pain. My h rarely shows emotions. Anger only when pushed too far. He had to put his feelings aside to deal with my emotions in the first months and when I trigger bad as I did last weekend well his feelings do take a backseat to mine! If I get out of control I do apologize but usually we come back to us being two imperfect people that refuse to give up on each other.

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    3. Elle, H has taken responsability for his bad choice. He is remorseful and guilty and has told me many many times that he regrets what he has done, and hates that he has hurt me so much. That he never intended to hurt me. Whenever I start crying he does hug me and try to soothe me and say he is sorry.
      But now I do feel that sometimes he is getting tired of it, and wants to move on. He thinks what happened is in the past and he would like me to let go (we are only 3 months post D-day!).
      But what I am finding hard is how to rebuild our marriage with his avoidant attachment style issue. As I have read from Stan Tatkin, avoidants feel they are needed but never really wanted. That is, they never really feel loved, but only used. That makes them threat the same person they actually really love. As I read in one of the articles, they live by "I want you in my house, but not in my room unless I invite you, and don´t bother to come to me because I will think you just want something from me".
      So basically whatever I say or do, my H turns it around into something negative, to reafirm his conviction that I just want to use him and I don´t really love him.
      Last week I suggested we should both read a book about affairs and how to rebuild your marriage. He should be happy that I am being proactive at fixing his mess, but instead his reading is that he always has to do what I want. And I only sugested it, didn´t force him in any way.
      If we plan a trip together, if I participate organizing it and give my opinion on what to do, then again, he always has to do what I want. But if I let all the planning to him so that he can choose what he wants to do, then I am not interested in it because I don´t care about spending time with him.
      So there is no way for me to do it right, because he will always twist everything to make it look like I always put my needs before his. It is not something I can change, it is something he has to work on, and I don´t see it happening. Maybe it is too soon to see any change, maybe I just have to give the therapy more time.
      But in the mean time I am still trying to survive my own pain and trauma from the affair, and all this is just exhausting me.
      The only positive thing that I see now, is that I finally understand what goes on inside my H head!

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  71. They are only rings. Rings do not have a memory. Put them on when you feel ready. Be true to yourself. I took mine off and said I would never put them on again. I meant it. After 11 months he bought me a new set blue and white of diamonds wedding rings which he took money out of his 401k to buy. I told my therapist if I end up leaving him at least I'll have a nice set of rings. She agreed. But his willingness to follow through and do that made all the difference to me.

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  72. Thank you all for the feedback on rings. I always loved mine and don't want a new one, but just hope someday I can wear it again without the pain. My H asked me today if I would start wearing it again..... I don't think I'm totally ready for it. I think somedays it would be fine and others my heart would ache too much. (Sigh)

    Butterfly - I am so sorry you are in such a difficult stage. It can be so hard and hurtful when our Hs want us to be their emotional care takers. I know I found it very painful and crazy making. I am thinking of you and sending love and support. We are all stronger than we realize and can find our paths forward.

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    1. Thanks Becky,
      Surprisingly, I never took my ring off. I thought about it right after D-Day, but didn´t have it in me to take it off. For me it is a reminder of my determination to try and get through this and rebuild my marriage. The day I take it off will be the day I give up on my marriage.

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  73. Sorry if I'm late to comment about rings. Ours our locked away. I couldn't bear for us to wear them anymore. I remember asking him if he took his ring off when he went to meet her. Not that it would have made a difference, she knew he was married (and so was she). They met on a website that's specifically for married people to find affair partners. It wasn't Ashley Madison, my husband wasn't willing to pay to cheat on me, for whatever that's worth. And it was a "boundary" of his not to "lead on" a single woman. WTF. I told him that seems even worse, not only was he destroying his marriage, he was destroying someone else's as well.

    Anyways, I digress. I couldn't bear to see the ring on his finger, knowing that it hadn't meant enough to him to stop him. I thought I'd been so lucky, he even wanted to wear a ring when we were engaged to show he was "taken". I thought I was so fortunate. Pfft. I didn't even wear my ring regularly as my finger had changed sizes from having a baby, and then weight loss, and I hadn't resized it and didn't want to lose it. The irony really struck me, that he wore his ring all the time, and he cheated. I didn't wear mine and I was completely faithful. Hmph.

    I was tempted to smash our rings with a hammer, but they're family heirlooms. On advise of our therapist, we marked a new start with new rings. The cover story was that his ring was getting ruined with his work. Not a total lie, as he works with his hands and gold takes a beating. He has a stainless steel ring now. That was our story when he parents noticed, because they don't know what happened. Very few people in our lives do.

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    1. Wedding rings... this is kind of ironic. I developed "trigger finger" in my left ring finger and couldn't wear my wedding ring on my left hand - starting in January of this year. So I wore them on my right hand. Two injections later - it was still not better and then DDay came in July. I will never ever put those rings back on. My H says he never took his off. Christ, he never ever took them off when he was with OW. But guess what? I don't think they will come off - seriously. He has worn his for 27 years. I told him I want him to take it off - it means nothing to me... as apparently it meant nothing to him for 18 years. I told him maybe some day I will wear a wedding ring - but NEVER that one EVER. But he refuses to take his off - whatever. I actually think about sedating him and having the ring cut off his finger. Kidding.... kind of :)

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  74. Butterfly, I'm so sorry to hear that. Ours isn't exactly like your situation, but it's hard because if I want to talk about it, my husband feels so guilty and ashamed of himself that he's incapable of having sex that night. So I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either I keep my feelings in so I can have sex, or I talk about it, but then that means just cuddling.

    The other night I was stuck in the "asking questions he's already answered" stage because I was once again afraid that he hadn't told me anything. (Unfortunately this always seems to come up when I'm having PMS and feeling very hormonal.) He asked me, "Why do we have to talk about this again? I don't want to relive it. I don't want to recall details. It makes me sick to my stomach that I did that to you, I just want to move on from it." He's always willing to talk about it, but IDK, maybe I'm doing more harm than good at this point.

    It's hard to strike a balance between pain-shopping and necessary talking, I think. We're almost at 17 months out, maybe it's time to stop asking questions? I already know all the answers. There's been no trickle-truth since a couple of weeks out, I do think he's been honest with me, as much as it's possible for me to be sure of anything when it comes to him at this point. Does that feeling of "waiting for the other shoe to drop" ever go away? Or is it something I'm going to have to learn to live with?

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    1. Hi Gee

      You may want to check out the work of Dr. Brene Brown. She speaks to the feeling of waiting for the shoe to drop as foreboding joy. This is something I have struggled with in various parts of my life. Her research indicates that a practice of gratitude helps one to move past the moments of foreboding joy and vulnerability. Hope this helps you - I have found Brene's books and research to be life changing.

      Love and support to all of us

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    2. Gee
      I like you seem to go back to questions we've discussed but I've not fully processed and when I trigger as I did this weekend, I search until I find the source of the trigger and then rehash the question and most times my h can help me find the piece of the question that remains unanswered the first time question was discussed. This often leaves my h unable to perform and barely capable of cuddling. My h has been using Viagra for several years even prior to ow and the ow made the fact available to me through text she was sending trying to cause him and me pain. However her text had not been explained in a way that I understood until tonight when I asked a more direct question. I.e. Did you have limp dick syndrome with her or was the passionate sex due to excitement of affair. He didn't understand why that was a trigger but he answered that yes he had just as much trouble maintaining a hard dick with her and shared only that he got the Viagra to help their sex. It made her feel special and she took pleasure throwing that knowledge in my face unbeknownst to her he had that issue prior to her. I knew about the Viagra but did not know he was using that to have an affair at the time she thought it was'just for her'. These things she was able to use as a way to create tension between us for those extra six months are the triggers that hit me without warning and I can't know when one is going to show up until it does. H does his level best to help me understand when I ask the same questions and for the most part he had even if it takes several days and texts and email from me to get his mouth capable to answer in a way my scrambled brain can comprehend! I hope you also find a way to get the answers you need and can get them without giving up the sex part. Sometimes for me the long term benefit of one night without sex but answers that still help me process the pain are worth missing out on! Hugs to you!

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    3. Becky, lots of people have recommended Brene Brown, so I will check out her work. Is there any particular book of hers that you recommend starting with?

      Theresa, holy moly do we have stuff in common. My husband used porn instead of having sex with me for years (he's a recovering porn addict). It was getting more and more difficult for him to perform with me, which of course did a number on my self-esteem. After D-day, I had this horrible picture in my head of him struggling to have sex with me, but having no problem with getting aroused to porn. It wasn't until a fight a few months out that he told me that in the last few years leading up to his real-life cheating, he'd had limp dick for porn as well, just as often as he'd had lip dick with me. I was flabbergasted and asked him why in the hell he didn't tell me that before?! He said what difference did it make. All the damn difference in the world! That helped to show me that it WASN'T me. I'd thought that I turned him off, but that he could get off to any other naked female in the world. Finding out that wasn't true made a huge difference to me.

      My husband is only now starting to realize that words are meaningless if actions don't back them up. He didn't get why I felt so unattractive. He kept saying, "Well, I was always telling you that you're beautiful! I was always telling you that it wasn't your fault!" I told him it felt like just words. When my man can't even keep an erection when he's inside of me, of course I don't feel at all attractive. Duh! He's only now understanding just how deeply this goes for me, and that his words were not enough to prevent the damage from happening. I really regret all the years I "put a brave face on it". Maybe he would have realized sooner what he was doing to our marriage. But I have to be careful not to play the "what if" game with myself. I get really stuck then.

      I think you are right, sometimes it is better when we talk and don't have sex, but then the air is cleared. His mojo usually comes back the next day, so as long as I don't need to talk that night as well, sex can be possible.

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    4. Gee
      That was exactly what I explained to my h. His use of Viagra with me when he first had trouble with erection did not make me feel less a woman. It concerned me he may be damaging his heart. When she reminded him he made dr appointments to get Viagra for her passionate sex and that meant she was important to him, the full impact of his need to satisfy another woman was thrown in my face as if to say 'you couldn't satisfy him and he chose me.'
      This came as a trigger for me when even though I knew he had taken the Viagra, limp dick appeared when he was ready to have sex with me leaving me with 'I'm not sexy enough' feelings. In reality, it was the amount of alcohol he had consumed while watching the ballgame earlier in the evening! He was finally able to share that his erection problem was worse with her due to the guilt and shame he felt every time they were together. As you say words mean nothing with out actions! I don't need to just hear 'I love you' I need to see and feel that love each and everyday ! Hugs!

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    5. Gee,
      I second (third?) the recommendation of Brené Brown's books. I loved Daring Greatly, which talks so much about shame. I'm working through her latest book but not liking it quite as much. The Gifts of Imperfection is another good one.
      And, after 17 months, I wonder too if your questions are doing more harm than good. Unless you're seeing him change for the worst, unless you think he's slipping, then I suspect your questions have more to do with your fear than with any genuine desire for clarity. You know what happened, more or less. Your marriage was reduced to rubble. Now it's time to rebuild.

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  75. Feeling really sad and hurt. Things seem at an all time low. Not sure what to do as I found out more lies. He still had phone contact with her for a week after dday. That was my deal breaker then. It's been a year after that now so I'm confused to find this out now. I believed him when he said he hadn't been in contact, I know it was a long time ago now but he looked at me and lied repeatedly. He was lying to me that week, the time I was most hurt and vulnerable and when I only gave him a chance if he stopped contact. It was supposed to have been over before I found out so why did he need to speak to her. There were so many messages. He was supposed to be their for us for our marriage not talking and texting her. Can I believe anything. Do I end it all now even though we worked so hard. he hasn't as far as I know spoken to her since but how do you trust someone when they lie to you so much and tell you they are telling you the truth. Things have also been difficult as I see the frustration building In him that I am still crying all the time. He feels bad that I'm hurt I know that I see he has tried to change but I'm still hurting so much because this devastated me. What did he expect. I don't know what to do. I worry because my decision affects the lives of our kids. I love him and always have. I don't know how many chances to give, i feel like I've given so many, with all the trickle truth and months of being given little bits . I don't want to keep giving in to all of this because I'm scared that my word will mean nothing. im scared to end it all because it's not what I wanted , not sure if I even want it now. Just don't want the pain.I don't even know if what I've written makes sense. I can't stop crying. it's hard to think straight. My life is a mess and I don't know what my marriage is anymore, I don't even know who he is anymore, he's not the man I thought I married. Please help me this sadness and pain is so intense,

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    1. You are not alone. We are all here to listen to you, to understand your pain and extreme sadness.
      I am so sorry you are feeling so hurt. I wish I could say something to make you feel better, but right now I am just crying because I feel your pain.
      Be strong!

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    2. Thank you Butterfly

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    3. I feel like a fool, he had a secret email account I knew nothing about. He claims it was to get his mobile bill sent there so I wouldn't see any of his phone records. The lies, the lies the cut so deep. How do I know what's real and what's lies. So many calls he made to her. Whilst I was here, how did I not notice all the texting. I never saw, I never knew. It hurts so much. How could he be here with me and texting her. I know he's not in contact with her now the records are clean but what he did is so hurtful. He spent so much time texting her on our birthdays, anniversaries. Should this hurt so much? Am I just pain shopping? I'm so confused and I feel like all the healing I have done and now I'm back at the start. The tears won't stop, my heart is pounding, I'm not eating, didn't sleep last night. How can I love someone who causes all this pain? What does that say about me ? Why doesn't what he has done make me not feel love towards him? I hurt because of him. Why does it hurt so much to imagine being without him, why does it hurt to think of him leaving. I am scared my pain and anger over this will make him leave, he drove off last night but after a while came home. What if he doesn't come home? I don't want that, but I don't want the pain.

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    4. Alone,
      Please be gentle with yourself. The wound was ripped wide open again when you learned more. Even though it's old news to him, it's new to you. And it hurts like hell, sometimes even more because you've been working so hard.
      He was a total ass. The question, I think, is this: Is he still that person? Are you seeing changes in him to indicate he truly acknowledges what he did the cost of his actions to you? Is he working like mad to become a better person? If yes, then I think you let yourself cry about what you've learned because, honey, it hurts like hell. If no, then it's time to cut your losses and move on without him. If you're not seeing genuine change in him, then he's learned nothing. But if you are, then you file this latest bombshell (once you've dried your tears) under "incredibly stupid things my idiot husband did before he pulled his head out of ass" and you leave it there.
      As for pain, it's inevitable. But not endless.

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  76. Alone,
    I'm so sorry for what you are going through. It's hard to not feel like a fool, I've felt that way myself. I've asked myself time and time again, "How did I not notice?" I read somewhere on this blog that you can't blame yourself for being a loyal, trusting spouse. There is so much truth to that. As hard as it is, try not to blame yourself for trusting.
    I wish I knew what to say in regard to why these truths have not come out sooner. It's hard to heal when you can't feel like you know the full truth. Maybe someone who's further down this path might be able to address that.
    I'm hoping for some comfort for you.

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  77. Alone, it's just my opinion, but IN my opinion there is no way that your husband should be driving off anywhere. He should be 100 percent accountable to you. all times, places and people. I do not understand men who act like this. Does he not see you are doing a HUGE favor by staying and trying to work it out? The man owes you just about everything right now. Should you hurt this much? of course. you are entirely normal.I could not believe either that i wanted to stay and work this out. Who the hell was i? Better yet, who the hell was he and why was i staying? It's so confusing. No mater what you are thinking, you are normal. A year down the path no doubt there has been some healing, but you were dealt a big set back when you found he had continued conversations with her after he told you he was not communicating with her. It feels like one big mind-f^ck I know. I am sorry, you hang in there for YOU. Are you guys working with a therapist? I have no clue how anyone navigates this path without a good one. Sweet thoughts for you Alone. You're in the best company and never alone when you are here with us.

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  78. Alone ... my h started speaking to his ow again a couple months after dday even went back for 1 more quickie which was devastating to state the least how crazy it sounds that truly made him hit rock bottom, now that the gig was up guess what ... sex wasnt as amazing with ow as it seemed when it was a secret, ow also let her true colors shine and finally it was the last straw where i demand give a shit about ME ... us or lose it all! I better start seeing action and lots of it! The fog handnt lifted yet, he hadnt told me everything yet some but not all which still gave the ow and affair power and it was tough because i too thought he was final be truthful with me. Shortly after he went back he came clean dumping more details answering more questions and listening to my points which not only released him from the affair fantasyland bullshit but also released me from my obcessing of the how when where .... the why indefinitely i may never understand. I know alot and i may never know it all but i hope o know enough to get thru. His affair long term and hurtful as hell worse time in my life but i can say now that i have a timeline and details that make sense im able to logically ( i use that loosely) process vs run circles in obcession and fear. Is it perfect nope ... a work in progress. But its our choice to stay and work at it everyday or decide its to much and not anymore only you know and if you dont sit idle till it becomes clearer. I learned some damn hurtful things places they went that were special to me, times he was with her when i needed him or special occasion i was alone or like you i found phone records for calls upon calls .. . while i myself cant fathom some things othertimes the sex, deceit and lies strick me to the core but i can see how the more he wanted out the deeper it got as he continued to try and cover his mistakes/secrets and keep the delusional ow quiet it finally became to much and he told me ... i feel like most of the time if we have limited details or things dont add up it makes us stuck from processing it ...and once i said i cant change any of what he did only work i today my numbness started to wear off .. i still think about it but it doesnt consume me like before ... im still trying to find my way too .... hang in there alone .... your far from alone when you come here. I feel every ounce of your pain and sweat as you work to walk uphill in this bullshit of betrayal. Xo

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  79. My heart goes out to you, Alone. As Butterfly said, you're definitely not alone. Your pain is a familiar pain here and so are the questions you're asking yourself. I think they must be questions we need to ask ourselves as we try to sort things out. It isn't pain shopping, I don't think. Just trying to make sense of something that isn't operating on legitimate logic in the first place but that we still need to sort into our reality some way or another so we search for answers. So please know that you're not alone and please be kind to yourself while you search.

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  80. Alone -
    I am so sorry...so sorry for your pain. I know it hurts so bad - gut wrenching, sleepless nights, trust questions. Finding out about a lie - it's like re-living it all over again. They think they are sparing us by not telling the whole truth - but it's not really. It really sounds like you both have made great progress. Maybe think about how far you have come - and that may help a little. Elle and Lynn have had such good advice for me thus far.... while it had not seemed possible.
    Be strong - feel your feelings.

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  81. Sitting in a bar in London waiting for my daughter. Just text my husband about something trivial. He text back with 2 kisses at the end. Prior to affair he never text and could be classed as a complete tech dinosaur. I text back and asked whether he put xx on the end of her texts which went on for. 7 months. He just phoned me and asked me to stop. Stop talking about it. I pushed asking the same question and he just talked in general. When I pushed for him to say yes cos you would think logically they would, he said no and would not say yes. He said I need to stop and move on. Why don't they release that the truth means so much. Of course he put xx on the texts. If I get the truth maybe I can analysis it in my Brain and then move on.

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    1. Jane,
      As you know, I'm an advocate for honesty and total disclosure. But...I'm with your husband on this one. You need to figure out what you're after. He put those XXs on his text as a way to express affection to you. Whether he did it with her is history. If you want to make him feel like shit, then call him out for it. If you want to drive a wedge and ensure that he feels uncomfortable expressing affection to you, then call him out for it. But if you want to rebuild a relationship with him that's based on kindness and love and compassion and, yes, honesty, then let it go. It honestly doesn't matter. He cheated on you. And you've been devastated by it. I completely get that. And I suspect that your comment to him re. the XXs is about that deep pain that still exists around this. But tell him that instead. Tell him that sometimes it still hurts so much you can't breathe. Share your feelings instead of looking for a fight. And Jane...I'm so sorry. Everything about this sucks.

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  82. Girls, I need some real help and advice. Alone, I feel you. We're in almost identical situations and I'm not sure what to do and I feel "stuck". Yesterday was my one year anniversary of D-Day. One week ago, like Alone, I discovered that my H saw the OW 5 times in January while he took her out to lunches. So, at that point I'm in this thing for about a month and we all know how crazy that time is. I was barely functioning, working, caring for our 4 year old. To learn this one year in feels like another ice pick was lodged in my back. While I'm down on my knees in agony, he's having cocktails with the ow, holding her hand and staring into her eyes. I chalk it up to still being under the influence. The high just hadn't worn off and honestly, a year into this, I think it may have taken a year for H to even begin to get in touch with the magnitude of what he's done. To learn more horrible truths one year into this, after I was told we're "at the bottom" is another emotional betrayal. I'm not sure I can say H has risen to the occasion in terms of helping me heal. He is in therapy and after going through two therapists before this one, I feel he's with the right person. He has made progress and he says he doesn't want to divorce. He cries, he puts up with my volatile outbursts. He also continues to sabotage things. He's not clear as to why he's doing it and it's one of the big things he's working on in therapy. On some level, he seems totally lost. There were two ow because my H was on Ashley Madison, but one of the ow is/was the pinnacle of beauty for him and here's the piece that I'm just not sure I can get over. I recognize my ego here, but I'm not sure if it's just totally ego or if there's something else. The conversation in my head sounds something like: no matter what I do, I'll never be as beautiful or sexy to my husband as his ow was. This is where I really need help. I know I'm not the most beautiful woman in the world, but I want the man I'm in love with to feel as if I'm his most beautiful woman in the world. This woman was the pinnacle of beauty for him - is he settling to be with me? To be with a man knowing I'm not his beautiful woman - am I settling to be with him? Men are visual and this is not where my issue lies. There's a difference between admiring a beautiful woman and sabotaging your relationship to sleep with a beautiful woman. I was totally thrown under the bus and in my guts I just can't seem to get past that piece. What about honoring and loving someone so deeply for sharing a life together, milestones, celebrations, deaths. It kills me to think he'll never see me as beautiful as the 28 year old he was sleeping with last year and I think something about that makes me feel like the ugliest woman in the world when I'm wit him.

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    1. Your post reminds me of thinking that OW might actually be a better fit for him in some ways. I was thinking about this aspect and that aspect that I thought he probably preferred about her.

      But I think obsessing about the aspects where the ow might have bested us ignores that people are a package deal. Prettier, younger, or sluttier - whatever might make her appealing but she comes with all sorts of other characteristics and baggage just like any other person -- ie. there is a reason she is out there willing to poach a husband in the first place. If she were a better package deal, he'd leave, right? But he's still with you. Why? Because you're a better deal. You offer more than she does.

      Also... think about replaceability. Pretty comes cheap if all she needs to be is pretty. Just like if sex is all you want, a short skirt and some mascara and you could likely replace him, right? But if you wanted to replace the package deal of what you want in a man... not so much.

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    2. V and Aelia,
      It never fails to amaze me just what fools men can be for a pretty face. And, I confess, it's hard to respect someone who's so taken by physical beauty that they completely abandon their moral compass.
      Being so smitten by a pretty face says a whole lot more about his fragile ego than it does about her appeal. That's what I'd be curious about: what does she represent to him. And that's something for him to figure out in therapy. Some people don't want the answers. It's easier to just be guided by their egos...until that pretty face reveals herself to have some pretty ugly personality traits. Of course, not all gorgeous women are nasty any more than ugly women are. It's just that THIS particular attractive woman is sleeping with a married man so she's clearly got some ugly issues.
      What you're both talking about is a deeper love that goes beyond superficialities. And it's what we all aspire to -- someone who sees us completely and loves us. It's what's possible when we heal from betrayal and both partners realize they've seen the other at his/her lowest and their love has only grown stronger. Of course, not all are willing to do the hard work of reaching that point. I hope your husbands rise to the occasion. But if they don't, please know that doesn't make you any less valuable or beautiful simply because they can't appreciate it.

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  83. Hi ladies,
    I am 8 months in and the road has been hell. My husband and I are still together and still madly in love. He had an affair with a woman from work for 10 months. He came clean in March, a month after he finally ended it with her. 2 months later we got pregnant and unfortunately lost our son at 17 weeks along. I birthed him and held his little body for 5 hours before I finally gave him over to the nurse. We lost our baby to my grief. My husband blamed himself, I blamed myself. I was suicidal, fighting for my life...and here I am still breathing still hoping still loving. I am too tired to share my full story, and really it doesn't matter the details. Please know that our husband's affairs had nothing to do with us. Could we have been better wives, mother's, human beings? Of course, we all have room to be better but that is no excuse for what they chose to do. They chose to do it to escape, to fill the gaping hole within themselves, because they were addicts, because they had no gratitude for the lives they had. Because they forgot why they married us in the first place. They married us because they loved us. And we loved them. So it is not useful to beat yourselves us. There is nothing you could have done. The only reason it was "her" is because she was available. Nothing more. There is nothing special about her. Period. That said please stop focusing on your husband, the other woman, what you did wrong, etc and focus on yourself. You didn't deserve this and you don't deserve to suffer. You deserve your love, your kindness, your compassion. Yes we have been reduced to rubble and we need to rebuild. But it is not our marriages we need to rebuild, it is ourselves. Give love to yourself, have reverence for yourself, find little things to be grateful for, connect with your bodies, pamper yourself. You deserve it after the hell you have been put through. Find little moments that give you joy and one day you will wake up and feel happy. Surrender, let it be, smile at yourself in the mirror, hug yourself often. Heal yourself and your marriage will follow. Or not. But at least you will be whole, not broken. We are stronger than we think. Blessings, compassion and love to all. My heart is with you xxx

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  84. I would just like to add...details...I was stuck on the details...maybe I will be again...today is a good day and I am putting the questions out of my mind. My husband also gets upset when I ask him more details, he tells me he has already told the me truth. Something that he said keeps sticking in my mind. He said "what does it matter, it was all ugly it was all disgusting and it never should have happened, please forgive me, please come back to me". I am not trying to excuse our husbands, but just know that if they are truly remorseful, and you will know if they are, they are feeling so much shame and guilt. They are also in a lot of pain. They feel pain every time they look in our eyes and know that they are the cause of ours.I know it is difficult and I am not saying excuse them for what they did, but understanding and compassion go a long way(to heal ourselves). If we truly want to heal, we have to try to have compassion for them as well. Not necessarily for why they had the affair, but for the pain, guilt and overwhelming shame they are feeling now, right along side of yours. For those who have husbands who are not remorseful or don't feel bad, even more reason to feel compassion for them. Poor sorry souls. And know that is no reflection of your worth. It is representative of theirs. We are ALL worthy of love and belonging Peace Love & Respect ladies xxx

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    1. Juniper,
      We're out of room on this thread so please check on Feeling Stuck: Part 10 for responses. I'll repost your comments.

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